Feedback? - 1st time high hydration
I typically stay in the 70-75% hydration range with my weekly bakes. This week, I had been doing some reading here (literally) and there, and decided I wanted to try out a recipe with an autolyse. Setting aside for the moment why I didn't just autolyse the flour in my usual recipe (that is way too logical), I searched around for a different recipe. I do enjoy ThePerfectLoaf (thanks, Maurizio), and I settled on his Country Sourdough with reduced levain and long autolyse. As I tend to do, I made some small adjustments, and also had to make do with flour I had on hand. So......the formula and process.....
Levain
25g ripe starter (used my house 100% AP fed starter)
50g Whole Wheat (freshly milled, white winter)
45g Central Milling Organic AP (CostCo)
5g Vital Wheat Gluten
90g Water
Mixed this up, left on the counter to do its thing, and after 4 hours it was nicely bubbly, good gluten strands, etc.
About an hour after mixing up my starter, I got the autolyse going:
100g Whole Wheat (freshly milled, white winter)
50g Durum (freshly milled)
800g CM Organic AP
50g Vital Wheat Gluten
800g Water (700g in autolyse, 100 held back)
20g Salt (after autolyse)
150g Levain (after autolyse)
I mixed this until the dry bits were incorporated, and left, covered, for 3 hours (~75F using a seedling mat for heat)
At this point, I followed Maurizio's procedure for this loaf as written......
Combined starter and autolyse with salt and held back water. Used French fold/slap and fold for about five minutes to develop the dough......THIS was the point where I realized just how high the hydration was in this formula. I actually laughed out loud when my pea brain finally kicked in, and did the (simple) math that this was north of 80%. Oh, well, soldier on.
I struggled a bit with the handling of this dough, but felt that I got good development with my FF, so we moved to the bulk phase. I did the proscribed three sets of turns, and bulked for 4.5 hours. At that point, the dough looked good. A bit jiggly, with some bubbles attempting to escape, but trapped by the network of gluten strands. I turned the dough out, divided it, and gently shaped into rounds that then rested while I did some cleanup (about 15 minutes.) I then shaped a boule (not shown) and a batard. I was able to develop a good skin/sheath around the shape, but this was definitely "floppier" than any dough that I've worked with. I did the best I could to shape, and then placed on a floured cloth in my banneton to proof on the counter for four hours, then into the fridge overnight (10 more hours.)
In the morning, I preheated my oven to 475F for an hour (with a stone), unmoulded and slashed my batard, baked at 450F covered for 20 minutes, and uncovered for another 30 minutes. The resulting loaf (see below) had little oven spring, good color, lots of blisters from the cold proof/retard, and a nicely crispy crust. Cutting it open after it fully cooled, I like the crumb structure, and the taste is fabulous (I love durum!)
What I'm hoping for here is some expert analysis (as best you are able from a couple pics) as to areas to focus on to improve the loft of this loaf. Overproofed? Under developed? Under/over fermented? Beyond my skill set?
Some of my ideas:
- Get some actual bread flour the is more in the protein range of Giusto's (11.5%)
- Practice more with high hydration doughs to get the feel of things
- Watch the dough closely in the next attempt, and move from phase to phase based on dough, not time
- Drop the hydration to something reasonable for my skills, and work back up to orig. hydration if needed
- Give away my starter, and take up knitting! :)
I'm no expert.
The starter composition seems overly complicated to me, and a high ratio of feeding in a short time, but I just do a simple 100% hydration rye. Not sure why gluten is added to it. But you may have reasons for all those things.
For your fresh milled flour, what do you do with the bran? Do you soak, soften, or mill it into dust to protect the gluten of the dough?
Crumb looks tasty to me, almost creamy. Is that from fresh milled durum and wheat?
Thanks for the reply, Happycat. I'm not sure what's complicated about the starter......it's just mixing some ripe seed with flour to feed it, then letting it mature until ready to use. If I'm missing something let me know, but that's pretty much what I do every time I bake sourdough.....feed a small amount of my seed/mother to get an active levain (sometimes in more than one build.) I added the gluten to it since the original recipe called for a bread flour @ 11.5% protein, which I did not have on hand. I added the VWG to my regular AP flour (10/10.5%) just to give it a bit more oomph. Since I mill my ww flour for a recipe anyway, milling up a few extra grams for the starter was no issue, and I wanted to try to stay as true to Maurizio's recipe as possible (at least the first time.)
I don't do anything special with my freshly milled flour. In my regular weekly loaves, this is no problem as I get great gluten structure, and (usually) very good spring in the oven. I think that it probably mattered even less in this particular recipe since the bran was all included in the three hour autolyse, so it got even more soaking than my usual loaves do (and with a considerably higher % of water!) :)
....thanks, I thought the crumb looked pretty good, too. Yes, freshly milled durum, and hard white wheat. I almost always include durum in my loaves. I love the flavor and color it adds.
Thanks again!
The loaf looks good. I wonder if you need to score at all. Skip the score and see what happens. :)
Hi, Mini! As it happens, I did not score the boule that I mentioned (I was going for a Danni-esque natural split on the "bottom" of the loaf as shaped.) Unfortunately, this did not succeed, as the loaf did not split at all, and I had the most perfect looking flying saucer you could ever hope to bake! :) Again, no real loft from the oven, much flatter than my usual loaves.
I like a lot of aspects about this batch, especially the crumb. I can't help but think that I just either didn't develop enough strength in the dough, or my inexperience with shaping a high hydration formula meant that I didn't have the "structure" needed for the loaf to rise up, rather than out.
As failures go, this one is one of the tastiest, open crumb failures I've ever produced! :)
I think maybe I'll drop the hydration back into my usual range for the next attempt and see what happens.....if I still don't get much loft, I'll look elsewhere in the formula and process.
Thanks again!
where the shaped dough rested on the countertop for 4 hours before chilling. I don't have much experience in such a long final proof but it seems like after shaping, going straight into the fridge might keep the dough from overproofing. It seems to me that one shouldn't try to get a big rise in the fridge during retarding. What one gets during the retarding is a lot of tiny bubbles well distributed in the dough. Then when baked, the gas bubbles expand and there is a super oven rise.
A very good point, Mini! I usually do 30-60 minutes of RT proof, and then into the fridge for at least four hours if not overnight. I wanted to follow Maurizio's formula and process for this one, so went with his timing on the post shape, RT proof. So......next time, I will probably bring the hydration down, as well as the proof at RT after shaping. Of course, this pretty much makes it my normal loaf, just with an autolyse! :)
My wife is happy, though, because the flying saucer boule will be perfect for stuffing on Thursday! :)
I'm working on Benito's version of Eric's Deli Rye right now, so hopefully that "new to me" formula turns out a bit better!
Thanks for the feedback, Mini!
R
Richard the crumb is outstanding. Based on the outside of the loaf I would have guessed overproofed, however the crumb really doesn’t show much in the way of signs of over proofing to me. The 4 hours RT final proof does sound a bit long, anytime I’ve done that I’ve been left with flat frisbees in baking. I wonder if the hydration was a bit too high for your flours and conditions. I always find that Maurizio is able to do higher hydration that I can and I think in part at least (besides the fact that he is more skilled than I am) to the fact that he lives in desert conditions so his flours can take more water than mine. I bet if you reduced your hydration a few percent and shortened your RT final proof that you would have a bake that you’re happier with. But that crumb is gorgeous!
Benny
Appreciate the thoughts, Benny! It was really funny (to me) that I didn't even look at the hydration until I dove in there to develop the dough......and then it was "UH-OH"! ;) I'll adjust hydration, and reduce my RT proof on the next round.
Thanks for the crumb comments, I like it, too. I was definitely surprised when I cut it open considering how flat it was.
Hopefully my deli rye turns out like yours! :)
R
My best 100% whole red fife crumbs were from overfermented frisbees Richard LOL.
I’m looking forward to your bake of Eric’s Rye, it is a lovely bread for sandwiches.
Benny