No oven spring and scoring problems
Hi All, first post here. I'm admittedly a newbie to the sourdough baking scene (about 4 months into it) and I consistently have 3 problems (the first two probably related). I've searched the site under "no oven spring" and "no lacey crumb" but still haven't unearthed a clue.
1. Very little if any oven spring.
2. Problems scoring
Dough surface is dragged and pulled by my (very sharp) lame when I try to score it, and it begins to spread once scored and doesn't retain its shape rigidly. It doesn't completely collapse, but does visibly spread and flatten a bit. In all the videos I've seen, the dough firmly retains its shape and scores cleanly without dragging and wrinkling the surface.
3. Crumb doesn't have large alveoli, mostly medium and small-sized ones, with the majority of the medium-sized alveoli located about 2/3 of the way toward the edges of the loaf (whether it's a boule or batard shape) and rarely if ever in the center.
I've tried proofing for shorter and longer times, relying on the finger poke test and watching how much my sample jar has risen (between 30% - 40% for shorter bulks and doubling in volume for longer bulks) but nothing changes.
I've tried using both lower and higher hydration recipes, use a proofer to control the bulk environment, and even tried using a commercial starter in an attempt to improve things, but have found they don't seem to be the root causes of my problems.
Other details:
- Loaves are usually a mix of (primarily) 12.7% protein KA bread flour and some whole wheat.
- I've tried just bread flour with no WW.
- I bake in a dutch oven and tried it in an Emile potato pot.
- I preheat the pot at 500°F and usually bake at 450°F.
- I've tried sticking to various recipes for at least 8 tries and making small changes in them, like when I end the bulk rise and when I preshape/shape and cold retard.
- I just tried adding some spelt to the mix because I understand spelt is very extensible. Seemed to help some with the oven spring but not with the scoring. Also no blisters with this latest try.
- Just switched from machine kneading to hand kneading and doing less of it to avoid over-developing strength (theorizing that I've been locking the dough in a "straight jacket" that inhibits oven spring).
- Starter is vigorous and strengthened 3 days in advance (5 feedings, 1/1/1, on a mix of 40% bread flour, 30% WW, and 30% rye).
Hopefully that's enough info that some of the experts here will spot what I'm doing wrong and end the anguish? Thanks in advance.
Can you post a picture of the crumb? That is often very useful to diagnose any issues.
Hope this helps diagnose what I'm doing wrong. : )
That's a beautiful crumb, and the loaf has very good height!
The only observation I can make is that there is a gap just below the crumb, which can mean overproofing, which would also lessen the oven spring and cause lack of ear. Can't say I observe any other signs of that though. Maybe someone else will notice something else...
Thanks for the feedback Ilya. I keep seeing all these loaves with lacy, airy crumbs that are filled with large and medium gas pockets connected by a network of many smaller bubbles and wonder why mine never seems to achieve that.
At this stage I'd be satisfied with a decent and consistent oven spring (sometimes there is none, where the score hardly opens up) and easier scoring. Hopefully solving these problems will lead to an even airier crumb.
Caveat: I’m new on here. I can bake but I’ve never use a recipe so I have no real reference point … my suggestions could be described the wrong way and be totally off the mark 😂
Spring - key tricks …
Hydration: 70%+
Lively starter and dough - starter triples in volume in a few hours
Not over proofed +70% from mixed volume is plenty
Well floured Banneton helps shape and slash
Cold final rise (fridge) - aids strength and delays baking of core
Steam: e.g. closed pot
A good slash, with an “ear-encouraging” edge.
These 7 things virtually guarantee a good spring.
My definition of “good” is (1) good volume rise in the oven (hard to measure) +70% is good. (2) Good aspect ratio (easy to measure) - for a boule height / diameter over 0.5 is good, over 0.7 is showing off.
Slashing tricks
Well floured dough surface - prevents drag.
Very sharp blade - serrated can help, lightly oiled blade can help. Razor blade (in holder) can help.
Support dough with thumb and forefinger of opposite hand - start blade between them.
Very fast, bold action.
Dough must not be over-proofed.
Cold final proof makes slashing easier.
On a boule a well floured banneton makes it easy.
On a boule, a horizontal slash (not orthogonal) helps the ear, as goes a deep slash and a post-slash gentle upward edge tickle helps to ensure a clean “launch” !
If the slash is still driving you nuts, grab some big shark kitchen scissors, apply a little oil and make big deep cuts.
On a boule you can make a scissor cut which is virtually indistinguishable from a lame-slash after baking
Bubble size, distribution. …
Main factors
Hydration % - the sunny uplands are 70-85%
Dough strength - good strong flour, over 12% protein. It does not need to be posh.
One of my fave flours is 39p/kg too ashamed to say which. Well stretched bulk ferment.
Dough handling - gently. Avoid kneading, squishing, thumping, etc.
Good spring -see above.
That is all I know about your topics.
Hi Brian
My hydration was 72%, starter triples in 3-1/2 hours (I put it in my proofer at 85°F, hope that's not a problem), I end bulk at between +30% - 40% increase (I tried waiting till it doubled, but it seems to be over-proofed at that point), I cold retard in the fridge, I bake in a preheated dutch oven and spritz the dough as well as toss in an ice cube or two, and have actually succeeded in getting a good score twice, but with recipes where there was no cold retard in the fridge (just did a preshape and final shape, 15-minute rest, scored and into the oven).
One thing you said caught my eye: a well-floured dough surface helps scroing. I flour my work surface when doing final shaping, so the "top side" of my dough is floured enough not to stick to my work surface or my banneton (which I also dust with rice flour). But should I be really heavily flouring the top of my dough to help the scoring?
helpful but in the meantime, try searching more oven spring
Head spinning. Searched through 3/4 of the posts at this point without finding a definitive clue. Will continue the quest tomorrow.
crumb shot shows you're doing well. Those lacely loaves don't hold up to toppings. :)
It looks like you could try cutting a little deeper when you score it. If it is spreading after you slash then there is not enough tension and strength built in during folding and shaping. A loaf that proofs over night in the fridge will have more oven spring, be easier to score and will hold its shape better. I would also suggest using King Arthur all purpose as half or all of the white flour to get a lighter crumb.
A few tweaks here and there can make a big difference.
Hi MT, isn't All Purpose flour lower in protein than bread flour, so less gluten formation, which would in turn mean a weaker dough? IDK, still learning about all the science behind sourdough...there's far more to it than I first imagined. Fascinating though.
The AP still has enough protein for bread and is better for baguettes and makes a lighter less chewy crumb. You will get more extensibility with lower protein flour. I use the blue bag for more lift when the bread has additions like fruits, nuts and seeds. Lately I have been using half of each for my sourdough loaves and it has been helping with the higher hydration breads that I typically make. So give it a try and let us know how it works for you.
Thanks for clarifying MT, didn't know that about better extensibility with AP flour. I conjectured that I maybe had too much elasticity and not enough extensibility in the dough, which perhaps was preventing it from stretching to its full potential during baking (kind of keeping everything in a straightjacket and limiting oven spring).
I tried adding some spelt to my latest attempt and it did help with the score opening up more--even got an ear. Just guessing though, it could have been some other reason, like not seriously overproofing.
I'll definitely try using AP on my next bake. I actually have a recipe from New York Times' J. Kenji Lopez-Alt that uses just All Purpose flour. Looking forward to the results.
Is known to be highly extensible so it will help to loosen up bread flour. AP will not require as much water so be advised.
I posted a blog here earlier this year about Tartine bread and getting to an extensible dough by withholding the salt until most of the water is mixed in. Getting an open crumb is a challenge I enjoy. It wasn’t easy to get there and it doesn’t happen consistently for me but it’s what I strive for.
Hi MT, I tried a recipe using All Purpose flour and it definitely seems to have made a difference in oven spring and scoring (or I fermented it closer to optimum, or all of these).
I was concerned that the dough was so stiff and dry and didn't seem very "stretchy" (extensible). As you can see by the first photo, this is about 5 minutes after my 3rd coil fold. At that point it felt and looked like a piece of putty.
I was surprised that it scored so cleanly the next morning, and even more surprised when I opened the lid to brown it. Much more oven spring than I've yet gotten, even with the addition of spelt. No large alveoli, but a decent enough crumb, and even ears. Great advice. I'm going to repeat this bake, and if I can at least replicate this outcome consistently, then I know I've taken a major step forward in finding my answers.
Sorry, haven't figured out how to add multiple images in a single post, will have to do this individually.
Very satisfying amount of oven spring, quite an improvement over my usual frisbees.
IMG_6580-downsampled.jpg
Bottom line: at least in my case, I needed more extensibility. AP flour and spelt both provide the extensibility I needed to let the loaf expand in the oven. Also maybe erring on the low side of proofing, since I suspect I may have been overproofing to try to build up the maximum amount of CO2.