Trying to perfect bread. Pls help
Hi all,
I am a home baker who has been baking free form yeast bread for a while. The results are generally good but I have been trying to perfect it without much joy.
The issues
The crumb is a little on the dense side and although I get oven spring I don't get that much. I have made the odd bread (by fluke) which has been more aerated and a good spring so am comparing my usual results to these.
What I have discovered
I next looked at my kneading... This I think i have an issue with. The dough doesn't seem to gain any strength. It is more like soft play dough rather than have any body to it. When I cloak the dough into a ball, rather than the tight skin I was expecting. Also, the skin usually rips rather than forming a smooth surface. I have tried the window pane test and the dough rips before it gets thin enough.
Further tests
I use a stand mixer and tried varying both the speed and duration. Reducing both (speed 1 of 4) until the dough is just mixed all the way up to kneading for 20mins on speed 2 and still no joy.
Anyone have any ideas on what is wrong? Maybe my expectations are wrong rather than the dough? Would these issues cause the issues I mentioned?
All help appreciated
Thanks
Lee.
I'm still learning myself, but perhaps a recipe and maybe some pictures would be helpful for those who can assist you? Good luck, the members here have helped me get through all my problems so far and I'm sure they will be able to do the same for you.
Hi Lee,
First it would help if we could see the formula you are using.
Also, would you please expand on "free form" bread? What does that mean?
Could be a flour issue. What kind of flour are you using? Is there a 'best before' date on the bag? Do you know the protein percentage of the flour (9%? 14%?). All wheat flour? Unbleached all-purpose or bread flour? Any whole grain flours in your dough?
Try kneading (or mixing in the stand mixer) fairly gently for a couple of minutes, then letting the dough rest for 5 to 15 minutes, then kneading again for a bit. After it starts to look stronger and stretchier, put it in a bowl and, after another rest, wet your hand and give it a few stretch and folds. Tuck it into a tight ball (without tearing the surface) and let it rest for another 20 minutes or so. Do this a couple of times and then let it finish the first rise. Sometimes time is the key factor in gluten / dough development.
How long are you allowing your dough to rest before cloaking? If it is tearing, it usually just needs to rest a bit more.
Hi T.Fargo,
When I was talking about the cloaking ripping I was referring to immediately when it comes out of the mixer. Judging by your question, should I only expect it to cloak after it has doubled in size? I usually leave for about an hour or so but must say I haven't been too scientific about it. More until it has at least doubled and I am ready to shape.
If this is potentially the issue, if it is breaking (I would usually have knocked back at this stage too) should I leave it a bit longer? Also, is a soft dough (like play dough) normal after kneading?
Thanks
Lee.
Hi all
Thanks for your replies. In answer to your questions...
I have tried a few recipes but with similar results. The one I used to try and perfect it is
1kg strong white bread flour (12% protein) - for those in the UK it is Allinsons
20g salt
14g dried yeast
80ml olive oil
640ml water
I hope to make some bread this weekend so wilk follow Ripping Dough's advice and post the outcome
Thanks again
Lee
Hi all
I followed Lazy Loafers suggestions and attach a few photos so you can see the results. Timings were as follows - recipe as before except I used 28g of fresh yeast instead of 14g of dried.
- Mix ingredients by hand in bowl so incorporated.
- in mixer speed 1 for 2 mins (photo 1 after)
- rest covered for 10 mins (photo 2 after)
- mix on speed 1 for 3 mins (photo 3 after)
- rest covered for 15 mins (photo 4 after)
- stretched and folded 4 x (left, right, top and bottom)
- cloak (photo 5 after)
- 20 mins rest (photo 6 after)
Repeat stretch and for 2 more times.
Observations
- after the 4 stretches, the dough was very tight and could not do a further stretch
- cloaking did not produce a smooth surface as the dough would break (my technique is to take the ball of dough and stretch the surface back and under working my way around the ball)
- I could feel the air building up after each stretch. After the final one although the cloaking wasn't right it did seem to contain the air and have a bit of a spring to it.
It is now finishing first rise so will post after that but seems to be going to the usual plan at the moment so assume I have already made the error :)
Thanks
Lee.
he posted (http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=ingredients) suggests that hard water could be a contributing factor to your dough issue.
If you have hard water, your dough will lack extensibility. There are a number of solutions for this, the easiest is to use softened, but not completely deminieralized, water.
Now that is interesting. Our water is hard (timescale in kettle and on taps etc.) and thinking about it, the best bread I made was in holiday in Florida where the we noticed the water was much softer than at home. This was one of my "fluke" breads where I paid less attention than normal to timings and hydration (didn't have a scale) and the bread turned out much better. Great oven spring and nice crumb. Next loaf I will try bottled water (check the mineral content as per the link) and see if it makes a difference.
Of all the things I have changed, I never thought of the water.
Hi all
I have tried to upload the photos but when I click the photo icon I see only a few photos and can't navigate to the photos stored on my phone. Is there a trick?
Thanks
Lee.
somewhere. The picture (tree) icon is simply to link the URL to that picture. My trick is to post them on Facebook and then link directly to that picture. Hope this helps.
Thanks for this. Will try and find somewhere to upload them
but it all sounds like the dough is too dry, splash in some more water (another 50ml) and bring up the hydration.
mix in half the flour making a batter and give it a good beating before adding the rest. As soon as all the flour is moistened, cover and let rest for 30 minutes or so before continuing with mixer.
Do you think a little less oil would help?
My observations after years making Pizza dough at two different restaurants, is oil makes the dough softer, but the secret was when it was added. We would mix the egg enriched dough, but only drizzle the oil into the mixer after it had enough consistency to climb the hook. Then we only let it work in for about 5 minutes.
Granted, we made huge batches at a time too.
Batches? We don't need no stinkin' batches!
Thanks for the hydration suggestion. By my calculations, this is 72% hydration. What would be the optimum for a standard loaf?
The recipe is a Paul Hollywood (UK TV baker) for a simple bloomer.
Thanks
Lee.
I figure 1kg flour and 640g water that's 64% hydration. ...oil doesn't count.
Ah so I thought any liquid contributed to the hydration level. So is the overall suggestion to increase the water and reduce the oil? Should I do by the same amount ie 50ml suggested? The dough itself was quite sticky.
a problem, you do want some softness and for the loaf to last a few days. I think I would attack the amount of yeast. 7g instant yeast is fine for 500g flour but as the flour goes up, it gets easier to reduce the yeast for more control and time to play. You can also tinker with the water amount and just experiment but write everything down. Try cutting the yeast in half. See where that takes you. Sure it will start off slower but quickly catch up so keep an eye on it and compare. :)
So in essence I should use 7g of dried yeast for both 500g and 1kg? Also how much fresh yeast should i use?
Lee
https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/resources/yeast-and-raising-agents/yeast-conversion-table/
I made some bread yesterday following Mini's suggestion. I added 50ml of water and halved the yeast to 14g of fresh yeast. Water was normal tap water. I followed the same routine as was suggested (ie with the stretch and folding and resting) before but this time cloaking with flour on the outside.
Observations
- The dough was very sticky after kneading and difficult to work with. After the first stretch/ fold/ rest it was fine
- The cloaking worked well with no rips and a tight surface
- the dough was soft with little "strength" although this might be that I don't know how it should be
- the initial rise was slower so I let it go until when i poke a floured figure in it it starts to spring back slowly and leaves a dent
After the initial rise in the oiled bowl I split the dough in two, cloaked them into an oval shaped ball and put seam side up in rectangular baskets for final rise.
The final rise was longer than I wanted but when I gently turned the dough out onto the baking sheet it did its usual collapse. Resulting bread wasn't as good as the previous one. Less chewy crumb and the taste wasn't as good.
So... A couple of questions
1. After the stretch and folds should the cloaked dough go into an oiled bowl cloaked side up? Also should it have the oil all over?
2. Could an over proof at the end cause the issues I describe?
Anyone any suggestions on what else I could be doing wrong?
Thanks all
Lee.
First rise after the above was 45 mins and then shaped into 2 loaves and then final rise of 45 mins.
Although I didn't knock all the air out between them.
As soon as they came out of the baskets they collapsed and after a little oven spring ended up as flat as they went in. So.... Worse than usual --.
I wouldn't have baked them ...if as soon as they came out of the baskets they collapsed...
That's where you and I differ, I have to reshape 'em and let 'em rise just a bit and then bake the life out of 'em. :)
,....... Well I guess it takes a lot for bread to be inedible so I always bake and see what happens. I tried the bread last night and it was great. Nice soft chewy crumb with a crispy crust. Much less dense than usual but only about 3" high.
So if I could only sort out the cloaking/ containment/ proper rise it would be a great loaf.
Hi all,
I have just completed the next set of dough which is now doing the final rise. To try and narrow down the issue, I didn't want to change too many things at once so decided to change the water to bottled within the hardness range.
Results
The water did make a difference. On the first and second stretches, the dough was much more stretchy. I could do 6 stretches each time (rather than 4 before) and it stretched further. The 3 round ended up with a very ragged surface when I tried to cloak it.
I then looked into my cloaking technique and then discovered I was doing it wrong. I was not dusting with flour! Anyway for the last one I recloaked it and it formed a good tight skin.
Question
After the final rise, should I knock the air out before final shaping?
Thanks for all you help
Lee.
Why undo the hard work?
Knock out the big bubbles so it's easier to shape, and you don't get big gapping gaps in the crumb, but keep the smaller bubbles.
Ok done that.... So for the final proof I use baskets. Having cloaked the dough should I out the seam up or down? Have done one each for now.
So when you turn the dough over the seam is on the bottom. Then your score the dough with a blade.
There is another way of seam down so the seam acts like a natural scoring when turned over so it ends up on top. No need to score. More natural like.
If you're doing two breads why not try both?
What is this cloaking you are talking about? The only time I have encountered this term was in the Artisan Breads in 5 Minutes where they put flour on the ball of dough to help with shaping. I am not sure if that is what you are doing here. If it is, why are you doing this before the first set of fermentation? I can see doing this before putting in the baskets but that would be about it.
I don't know if this will help but I created a visual tutorial a while back for fun. Maybe something in there will help you see what things should look like altthough I know there are tons of YouTube videos available.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49394/visual-tutorial-farro-sesame-hemp-hearts-sourdough
Oh and I agree, your dough was very probably over proofed.
Yes the cloaking I was referring to was as you describe. I was following Lazy Loafer's advice above - I guess I assumed he meant cloak it when he said to put the dough into a tight ball after the stretching and folding.
I have been looking in a few of my bread books and the amount of time in the mixer seems to vary widely.
In "Bread" by Jeffrey Hamelman he suggests 2.5 mins on speed 1 then 4 to 5 on speed 2.
In "Bread Alone" by Leader and Blahnik they suggest 12 mins and if not ready go for 3 to 5 mins longer. They say it is ready when it forms a ball without sagging and springs back quickly when pulled. I don't think mine has ever done this.
When the dough comes out of the mixer, I would describe it as relatively soft. It is easy to pull the sides over to form a ball and if I were to hold one side the other would fall. There doesn't seem to be any strength to pull back quickly. Is this also an issue? Should I mix for longer or shorter ?
I will make another loaf in a little while with bottled water and I think I will return to the original hydration level.
Thanks for the link to your pictures. My only comment is that mine looks smoother on the surface. When it finishes in the mixer the dough almost has lines radiating from the centre to the bowl and the dough between looks fairly smooth. Is this a clue as to the mixing is at fault?
Thanks again for all your help
Lee.
to make dough but I think you want the dough relatively soft. At least, I know mine is when mixing by hand. You want it to be able to hold up in a ball shape with a bit of flattening in contrast to it completely flattening out like a pancake. That is what I look for when shaping. If I don't get that, I shape again to give the dough strength so it can do that.
I don't worry too much about what it looks like when I do the first fermentation aside from it being soft enough for me to stretch and fold without tearing. If it isn't, I add water. I know that using a mixer is different because you develop the gluten there where I let the gluten develop over time in the bowl.
Long story short, someone more experienced with mixers needs to give you advice. Keep practicing and over time, you will get to know that the dough should feel and look like.
I wish we could see the pictures, it would help a lot. But your descriptions make it sound like a fairly normal, well-behaved dough. And just to be clear, the term 'cloaking' wasn't mine. I hadn't heard that one before either, but I assumed it meant forming a smooth, fairly tight skin on the shaped loaf. When I said "tuck it into a tight ball" after the stretch and fold, that was possibly misleading. What I meant was turn it over so the seams are underneath and tuck around the edges a bit so it's smooth.
Have you tried baking it in cast iron pots? Might help with the oven spring.
Hi all,
I replied earlier but it doesn't seem to have appeared here for some reason.
Yes sorry cloaking was my term and I did mean forming a tight ball as you menyion. Sorry.
I ended up splitting the dough in half giving the second half more proofing time.
I did and initial rise of 40 mins and then did the split. The first half I shaped and then did a second rise for about 30 mins and then baked it. It had a relatively good oven spring and was better than previous attempts. Still not perfect but better. I concluded that the rising was my issue.
The second half I left for a good 20 mins then the family wanted pizzas. So... I used half of the second half for pizza bases and cooked the pizzas at 270 deg C with a pizza stone. Meanwhile the rest of the dough continued to proof. After cooking the pizzas (not sure how long this was) I thought the remaining dough was vastly over proofed so rather than throw away I took it out of the basket, cloaked it and put it in the oven on the pizza stone. To my complete surprise, the dough had a great oven spring and the result was what I was looking for.
So now I am more confused than ever. Anyone able to understand what is going on here ? The first dough was cooked at 220 deg C for 15 mins and then 200.
I have all the pictures but am struggling to find somewhere to put them so I can send a link. Will continue to try.
Thanks
Lee.
Hi All,
I have finally managed to upload the photos...
These are from the bake I did yesterday and show the dough in various stages of the process. In the last photo you can see the difference between the partially successful first loaf (in the background) and the dough I thought would be vastly over proofed in the foreground.
https://goo.gl/photos/H9D9wSi8FbNB4ddW6
These are from the first bake I describe above following the stretch and fold advice. Again photos of various stages including before each stretch and fold and after the corresponding rest period
https://goo.gl/photos/mgu3KCwn6dXvwRSt8
Hopefully these will work for you
thanks
Lee
You can see the difference in the gluten development between the first set of photos and the second.
From the photo (I may be wrong but from the way it looks) more dough for the batard would benefit. But both look really good!
Thinking back I'm wondering if 80ml of olive oil might be too much. How about dropping it to 60ml?
What plans have you got for your next bake?
Hi
Thanks for the reply. I have a couple of silly questions..
1. When you say you can see the difference in the gluten development, how do you determine the difference? Also which was the correct one?
2. By batard do you mean the basket? If so yes it is quite big so a 500g loaf fills it by around 3/4. Will filling it more force it to have more height?
In terms of the next loaf, lowering the oil sounds worth a try so will do that. Depending on your answer to 1 I will try and take the best of the 2 techniques eg knead the same as the best one and add folding. What do you think?
All perfectly valid.
1. From one set of photos (first bake I think it was), the second photo along, it looks like you stopped the machine (which I assume is when you've finished) and some of the dough is on the hook and the rest is a pool at the bottom. With enough gluten formation the dough should really hold together. Unless this is mid gluten formation. When gluten formation is done the dough should come cleanly off the sides and when poked it should bounce back up immediately.
2. By batard I mean the torpedo shaped one from the second bake. The basket seemed a bit empty. From here it looks less than 3/4 full. Looks like you've just shaped it and placed it into the basket. A bit more dough should give it more support.
3. With the oil, lowering it will help. You don't wish to saturate the dough too much. Add the oil last. Roughly form the dough, till craggy, on an initial low speed and then add the oil. After which bring the dough to full gluten formation. Then half way through the bulk fermentation, it's not necessary but, you can give the dough a stretch and fold. Bulk fermentation is done when the dough is billowy and aerated. It should have an elasticity to it.
Thanks for the clarification. I think you are referring to the first bake and the photo is after kneading had completed. Just to be sure, are you saying that because the dough on the hook has teared away from the main but it indicates it has not developed enough? Do the comparative photos for bake 2 indicate it is then enough (it had more time and was partly using speed 2) or is it still insufficient.
Ok will either make the basket smaller for the next one or put the full 1kg in it for the next bake and will reduce the oil.
Thanks again
Lee.
It's simple and you can follow your rising easy enough. With white bread, using yeast (not sourdough) I let the first rise double in volume. Then degas and shape for a final proof.
If you are having difficulty judging the volume of the loaf's first rise (bulk rise) then
When the dough gauge reaches double, do your stretch and folds to knock down the dough and eliminate the large gas bubbles. Let the dough rest as you knock down your dough gauge dough. After 10 minutes shape the dough and place into the floured baskets as previously mentioned, seam side up. Cover. Watch the dough and the gauge and compare what you see and feel with the dough with the gauge. When the dough is double in the gauge, flip the dough out of the basket, score and bake.
This should help with any amount of yeast that you want to experiment with. Hope this helps.
Thanks for your reply. Judging by this, do you think the proofing is my issue then? For the next bake I'll give your gauge a try
Thanks
try making a gauge and follow the rise and see. Bowls are very tricky shapes to judge volume. Put it this way, it might help narrow down the problem. Be sure to make notes.
still no joy..... The changes this time were....
1. reduced oil to 60 ml from 80 ml. The only real difference in the kneading was that the dough seemed to start coming away from the sides a bit and created a few air pockets which popped as it kneaded. After the knead (2.5 mins on speed 1 and 4 mins on speed 2) the dough did feel a little bit stronger but not a major impact.
2. used normal tap water as I didn't have any bottled
3. Followed Mini's gauge method above.
The photos are here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2rS4P7MdOMXSnF3aDlqVGZvUDQ?usp=sharing
Photos are as follows
1 + 2 - after the kneading is complete and I tried to show the texture from the mass on the hook and the bowl as well as the dough on the right is coming away from the bowl.
3 - is after I cloaked and put in an oiled bowl for first rise. Surface has been wiped in the oil
4 - shows level in gauge before first rise
5 + 6 - Dough and gauge after first rise
7 - immediately after taking out of the bowl
8 - after stretch and fold - it took 6 stretches/ folds to get it tight. The first ones enabled me to pull to 3 or 4 times the dough length
9 - after the 10 mins rest
10 - dough having been shaped and put into the basket
11, 12, 13 - dough/ gauge after second rise. to create some sort of shape I floured the top and folded the edges back into the middle trying to cloak as I did whilst leaving in the basket.
14 + 15 - the baked loaf
16 - I reshaped the gauge and left it on the side whilst I baked the main loaf. I then baked it afterwards (probably 40 mins or so later). This photo shows the ball having been baked next to the main loaf.
So... no real progress unfortunately. Anyone have any further suggestions? Maybe the dough is too wet and it is having difficulty holding its shape.
The only other thing I can add is.... when I did a great loaf whilst in Florida on vacation, I seem to remember the dough having a lot of strength to it and you could feel tension in the dough when shaping/ cloaking it. This dough is much much softer than I remember that one being. This was a couple of years ago though so my memory could be failing me.....
Anyone have any further suggestions?
thanks for all your help so far.
Lee.
1. miss out the oil. For now.
2. drop the hydration to 60%
3. shaping the batard
4. watch that final proofing. gone a bit wild there.
So next bake I will leave out the oil and reduce to 600 ml of water. What do you mean by shaping the batard? I also have round baskets (8" diameter 3.5" deep) if they would be any better?
and I am wondering if I have missed something. Photo 8 - is this after bulk ferment? are you doing a set of vigorous stretch and fold after bulk ferment?
photos 11,12 - looking at your photos I suspect you have too much dough for your banneton as normally I wouldn't be folding dough once it is in the banneton and proofed.
the baked loaf looks ok, can you post a crumb shot so we can see what that is like.
Leslie
This time too much. Or is it the shaping too?
We need the size of the banneton confirmed.
Looks a bit over proofed too.
12" x 5" x 32 (deep) - picture 154719 shows the shaped dough put straight into the basket if that helps. The over spill ones are after the full second rise.
Hi
Yes... Mini's suggestion above was to try doing a bulk ferment and then a stretch and fold before shaping etc. Photo 8 is after the stretch and fold.
The baked loaf didn't rise much in the oven which is the overall problem I am trying to resolve. I have added a crumb photo to the link. Hope it helps.
Thanks
Lee.
To any of these http://www.brotformen24.de/angebot.php?lang=en
It also has dough weight that is suitable
the 1.10 long plain angular which is 29.5cm x 14cm x 8cm (1250g dough) or the 1.12 long plain angular which is 33cm x 15cm x 8cm (1500g dough). Mine (internal measurements) is 32cm x 13cm x 9cm which if you compare the volume puts it between these 2. Net result is there was indeed too much dough as by my rough calculations mine would have been around 1740g.
Start off with 1250g and see how that goes. Now we build a simple recipe with this in mind. How about
Flour 100%
Water 60%
Salt 2%
Dried Yeast 1%
780g bread flour (or, if you wish, 700g bread flour + 80g whole wheat or whole rye)
468g water (507g if you add in some whole wheat or whole rye)
15g salt
7-8g dried yeast (one packet I believe)
1. Make sure you develop the gluten well. It should come cleanly off the sides and hold together nicely. When poked it should bounce straight up.
2. Bulk Ferment till doubled.
3. Shape a batard (torpedo). Look up some youtube videos on how best to do this. Best to do a pre-shape first then a final shape after a little rest.
4. Final Proof till just under doubled. If this dough fits the banneton well it should not come over the sides. Watch the final proofing carefully. I'd estimate 40min - 1hr depending on various factors and if the bulk ferment is timed well. But watch the dough and not the clock.
5. Bake in pre-heat oven.
unfortunately I only have fresh yeast at the moment. Online it looks like I should convert 7g dried to 15g fresh does this sound about right?
Looking at your method, my previous attempts have failed at step 1 as the dough does not come off the sides (at least when kneading). Also, there is little bounce in it. It is a soft texture (a bit like playdough) with little strength - by this I mean that I don't think you could form anything like a sphere or there appears to be anything pulling the dough in/ together. Not sure if this makes any sense or indeed this may be what I should be aiming for but thought I would mention it. With the lower hydration and the removal of the oil (there appears to be some schools of thought that the oil adds to the perceived hydration too ) maybe this will at least get the dough to be pulling off the sides.
thanks again
Lee.
I'd put it at around 15g fresh yeast but I'd proof it first.
Measure out 120g water (from the recipe) in a bowl making sure it's between 90-100°F (32-38°C). Dissolve a pinch, or two, of sugar and then add the yeast. Stir till the yeast is dissolved and leave it for 10 minutes. It should begin to froth.
Use in the recipe but remember you've used 120g water to activate the yeast so take that off what you now add in.
Oil does not add to the hydration but will make it feel so.
Hopefully it should be easier to develop the gluten or at least to get the feel that the gluten has been developed well.
As suggested I looked for a batard shaping video and came across this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcENyn6uO-M
The first interesting thing is the dough in the bowl at the beginning of the video. Their dough seems to have risen vertically more than mine with the upper section pulled away from the sides. Almost like the dough is pulling it into shape whereas mine the doming is very low.
As for the folding technique, this is nothing like I have been doing!!! I have been doing something more like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDBJkxoNpE8
But by adding a little flour to the surface of the ball and making more of an effort to tighten the gluten cloak as much as possible.
Thanks again
Lee.
The one you have just found is a good video for shaping a torpedo. Her dough looks quite low hydration too and the gluten is developed well so it holds itself together and is easier to shape.
The second video is ok the shaping a boule (ball). Shaping that way and then putting it into an oval banneton wouldn't be the best shaping. For a round banneton it'd be ok.
Little changes here and there and we'll begin to improve on the recipe/method. Once we've cracked it then we can start to add things in like oil and, if you wish, increase the hydration.
Best of luck.
Looking above you haven't suggested I do a stretch and fold between the bulk and shaping. Just double checking for this round we are not doing it?
are used to help develop the gluten. Since we're simplifying things for now and not doing so by hand then you'll be doing all that in the machine.
What you can do is add in a step to shaping. Shape the dough into a round first. Don't over work it or tighten it too much. In fact you can do the way you have been doing (as in the second video) first. A quick rough shape into a round. Let it rest for 15-20 minutes allowing it to relax. Then go onto shaping the batard by sprinkling the dough with flour, flipping it over and proceed with the batard shaping video. This will be a bit like a stretch and fold and giving it more structure.
Making it now...... fingers crossed..
We'll get there. Just gotta find out the magic tweak.
No real life in the yeast... I did as you suggested but no bubbles in the yeast. Having said this, I only bought it a couple of days ago and used it to make yesterday's bread and it seemed fine. So assume it is ok to continue with.
And send me a photo.