Can't get high hydration loaves to keep their shape in the oven!
I'm a home baker who has been making sourdough for about 5 years. I've had success making all types of bread... except high hydration sourdough baked on a pizza stone. When I put a loaf on my pizza stone, it immediately 'pancakes' into a flat mess. I let it bake for about 40 minutes and I get a little bit of oven spring but nothing compared to what I see on all those YouTube videos where other bakers get a big oven spring.
I typically go for about an 80% hydration (sometimes more) and I've tinkered with my formula and technique quite a bit. I've done long ferments and short ferments. I've tried different types of flour (KA, Central Milling, Bob's Red Mill, Whole Foods 365, Gold Medal, etc.). Whatever I do, my high hydration loaves end up flat like road kill.
Here's a typical loaf I'll make:
- Mix 400g water and about 50g starter (100 hydration)
- Add a dash of brown sugar or agave nectar to help kick start the yeast.
- Add 500g of flour. I often times do 90% white and 10% wheat.
- Let rest for about 45 minutes
- Kneed in about 2% salt (11g)
- Stretch and fold an hour later
- Stretch and fold about 4-5 more times, on the hour.
- When I have strong gluten development (after about 5-6 hours from start), I dump dough onto a work surface and do an initial shape - a simple round with some surface tension.
- After about 20 minutes, I do a final shape. I try to get as much surface tension as possible, but honestly this is the most difficult part for me. My final shape results vary quite a bit.
- Place in a bannetton and let sleep overnight (10-12 hours) in a 55 degree room.
- Oven w/ pizza stone is preheated to 450 degrees Fahrenheit. Pan filled with water is placed underneath the pizza stone.
- I VERY GENTLY flip the bannetton and place the loaf directly on the pizza stone, score the top (one long slice down the length) and cover with a metal bowl. Bake covered for about 15 minutes, bake for another 25 minutes uncovered.
When the loaf goes onto the pizza stone and is scored down the middle, it takes about 10 seconds before I can see the whole thing start to pancake. The end result is equally flat and uninspiring.
I'll be baking another loaf in a day or two and will try to post some pictures of what's happening. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Maybe bulk ferment less and try to shape a round loaf. Finally instead of room temperature proof put it in the refrigerator and bake directly from fridge.
10% starter is pretty low. But if you insist, I still recommend proofing overnight in the fridge. Well-proofed loaves have no oven spring even when cold. But cold loaves tend to have a little more oompf.
I had the same problem once upon a time. I changed my pre-shape/shape procedure to using a taping knife (stainless steel, from a hardware store) as shown in this SFBI video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEG1BjWroT0
I follow roughly the same procedure. I allow a longer rest than you, giving it 30 minutes. With the taping knife and minimal - ideally none at all - I am able to get a very strong surface tension that holds very well.
After the preshape I roughly shape the boule with my hands, but tighten it up with the taping knife. I give it 5 minutes to rest on the counter for a little help from gravity with the seal, and then it goes in to a basket.
I am not sure why this has worked better for me, but a taping knife is cheap so I'd urge you to give it a go. My theory is that the smooth surface of the knife, combined with quick movements, allows me to form a strong tension without any small areas of damage that might be caused by little bits of sticking to my hands etc during the final shaping.
it isn't a law and if the loaf is already expanding why bother? Try not scoring and see what it does.
Or try a score that doesn't cross the top completely and leaving some "skin" to hold the shape.
If you score along one edge, it will roll up like a roll top desk. The dough sounds too close to over proofing. Might want to retard sooner. Another trick might be to flip the banneton half way thru the night onto parchment and back into the banneton. Let the parchment stick to the sides of the loaf and give support in the oven. Another solution might be to reshape after the retard to get the slack dough back into shape.
I've had some issues too with this ... especially on the higher end of hydration, it was an issue. Maybe it's your shaping? The flattening can happening if you're not building enough strength in your shaping steps, by using traditional shaping techniques. Try looking at the Tartine method for shaping, especially if you can see videos of Chad robertson doing it. It's a little extra work, but they helped my loaves a lot!
2 things it could be.
1. its over proofed (maybe you have really active starter). Put in a container that is the same at the bottom as the top (bowls get larger tword the top so who knows when it's actually doubled) with markings and play around with rise levels. Tartine says 30%, but I'm pretty sure 100% is too much.
2. Yes, you may have gluten development, but water is heavy and your gluten needs to be strong. Strengthen by 4 or so mins of slap and fold when you add the salt, then continue your usual amount of folds. (Just make sure not to over develop.)
when I said proof, I meant bulk ferment.
proof use the poke test
80% hydration you either put it in a pan or call it ciabatta - I'm pretty sure Mini Oven told me that eons ago. Lots of truth in it. A very wet white SD bread made with bread flour is 78% hydration. It needs support and baked straight from the fridge at 90% proof with a very quick and clean shallow score. Good luck at mastering that - at 80% hydration you need divine intervention I'm afraid:-)
Happy baking
is what I came up with... what I am thinking about is this only happens with high hydration doughs. And although short fermentation was mentioned, it is important to compensate and expect a faster fermenting time. Also keeping the surface tension becomes problematic as fermentation progresses as the dough relaxes and falls apart instead of maintaining its shape.
I might suggest reducing the recipe to one tenth (drop a zero off the gram weights) and just play and observe the dough in two measurable containers. Fold and stretch one while just watching the other. One is interrupted fermentation and the other is the time line. When I use a one to 10 ratio of starter to flour with 80% hydration, it reaches peak in about 8 -10 hours, that would mean it more than doubled it's volume, way more. If I let it sit on its own and fall down, it will rise again in the next few hours but not nearly as high as the first time. The dough is then very spent and worn out, and very runny. Add warm room temps and those times can be shortened. This high hydration dough is not much different. Whole flours will also speed up fermentation so that a plain dough will tend to rise slower than one with rye or whole wheat when comparing. Also folding the dough distributes food to our wee beasties and also speeds up fermenting times.
I'm not sure about all the folding in the first few hours like clockwork. I find that all the folding in the first few hours is just a waste of time. Later, after more fermentation, it becomes much more important. I tend to wait until the dough starts to collect gas before folding. (I'm just lazy that way.) If this step (waiting for some gas to collect, about 1/3 increase) takes a while, then I know I can bench rest it longer before retarding or chilling. If it goes quickly... then I get the dough into the fridge sooner or expect to bake sleepy eyed within the next four hours if I leave it out. Standard chilling doesn't help after the fermentation reaches a certain point. (maybe flattening the dough with ice packs or the freezer help) Yeast tends to double in the dough every 1 to 2 hours depending on the temps, flour and such and in a very short time, the dough can go from half proofed to over proofed when conditions are right.
I don't think you need to kick start the yeast, add sugar later with the flour. Bacteria are better at growing in sugar and we wouldn't want them to be too far ahead of the yeast. :)