July 25, 2016 - 9:26am
Disappointing Final Rise
Have been using my Nancy Silverton starter for 15 years but since I moved into a new apartment I can't get the final rise in the oven I used to.
Not sure if it's the oven (too hot?) or my new fridge (too cold for the over night rise?)
One clue: when I score the bread right before popping in oven it really deflates - sinks so far down. poor thing.
I tried cutting out the over night rise and baking a loaf after just two rises in one day - no that was even worse.
appreciate any advice - I miss my big beautiful boules!
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the boules. Have you checked your fridge temp? I found that I was overproofing overnight when my fridge was at 42 or so but things have been much better since I dropped it down to 37-38F.
you might just be a genius. I thought my fridge only has a scale of 1-5. I thought being at 2 I was at the warmer side. just checked and I had it backwards...they recommend 4 as cold but not coldest. just changed.
regarding the overproofing - that's what I thought too except the boules coming out of the fridge were high but VERY cold so i was waiting for them to warm up - will try with next batch on new fridge temp and see what happens.
thanks!
over proofed in the fridge and then you added counter time, so that would explain the collapse when you scored them. By the way, you can bake cold right out of the fridge, I actually prefer doing it that way. Glad I was able to help!
huh. I don't know how to slow down the rise in the fridge. here are some additional ideas:
Silverton always says to do a second rise for an hour or two and then put in fridge - I'm thinking put right in the fridge and then bake out of the fridge like you do. will promise to report back! thanks again
I'm noticing a gas burner, so unless you have dual fuel you have a gas oven as well. By design, gas ovens are meant to vent well, thereby not retaining steam as well as an electric oven. Did you have an electric in your old abode?
Is your old kitchen temp cooler than your current kitchen's temp. You may be over proofing on the bench before your dough ever gets retarded. Danni's analysis is probably the best guess, but these are two others to consider.
Smart comment - yes my old oven was electric and this one is gas. anything I can do in a gas oven to increase the retention of the steam?
I can's say if new kitchen is cooler than old - suspect warmer since old kitchen was both wider and more open where this one is a galley. I have proofed prior to retention in other rooms and haven't noticed a difference.
You might want to try a dutch oven or ceramic equivalent. The gas oven is really efficient at getting rid of your steam...
nhalpern,
alfanso and loybd are on target from what I have experienced trying to bake artisan breads in a typical residential gas oven. In the mid 1990's I was using a Wolf Gourmet residential A-20 gas range and oven. The range's oven venting design seemed to be designed by the legal community and suits. I was also on the 'vertical-learning-curve' of baking Baguettes.
All I seemed to achieve was Baguettes that resembled anemic sea cumbers (Nudibrachts). Heavy and dense,,, but during that time my wife always told me that they were really good….. 'gotta luv that girl!!
Long story short….. I found out that steam or lack of it in an oven that is aggressively vented is a 'killer'. So, I purchased a 'steam-table' deep S/S pan and several pieces of fired tile. I placed the tile on the oven rack, I would then slide the Baguettes onto the tiles, spritz them with water several times, cover with the inverted steam-table pan, and bake for 10-12 minutes covered. Then remove the pan and finish the bake time….
Yes, I agree,,, pain in the posterior,, but I started getting results. Several years later I built a gas fired, controllable vent, steam injected, brick/stone oven…. Sweet. But if you primarily bake 'round' a Dutch Oven, like was suggested is excellent.
So,,, like alfanso and loydb suggested, in my humble opinion, the switch from an electric oven to gas shot you in your foot. Work on a 'countermeasure' and push forward………… Getting there is the adventure……!
Have fun….
wow. what an education today. I had no idea about gas vs. electric...and have been scratching my head about why my breads don't do well in my new home. SO helpful because you all cracked the code.
question on "counter measure": If I use a dutch oven (never have) what does that mean for retarding in my beautiful willow baskets? Can't see transferring risen dough from one of those into the oven without it collapsing. Do I retard over night in the dutch oven and then put the cold cast iron in a hot hot oven?
Or...with the inverted steam table...I do have a tile and tend to spritz the sides of the oven. do you actually spritz the dough and then cover? this means giving up my old technique of spritzing 3x in a 450 degree oven for the first 5 minutes of baking...
But heck - I'll try anything here other than moving! and since I live in a NYC apartment I'm stuck with the gas oven
to transfer dough to a Dutch oven. You can bake with a cold Dutch oven but I have never tried it. I know there are posts about it on this site.
What I do is flip the basket down on a counter sprinkled with cornmeal and then carefully pick up the dough with the sides of my hands, and place it in the screaming hot Dutch oven. I then score and put the lid back on. I also sprinkle cornmeal in the Dutch oven just before putting the dough in it.
Another way is to flip your dough onto parchment paper and use the parchment paper as a sling to lower the dough in the Dutch oven. Leave the parchment paper under the dough for baking. Some people reuse the paper but I buy the cheap stuff so I get only one use out of it.
I don't use a Dutch Oven, but there is plenty of evidence that product can be easily transferred from basket to D.O. with no degradation. There are videos as well as a lot of discussion and suggestion on TFL as well. Just figure out the correct search criteria and plop it into the Search box in the upper right of the screen.
Here is a video, start at around minute 2:00
As a counterpoint to the diagnosis of inadequate steam due use of a gas oven, I have a Blue Star gas oven, and steam dissipates very quickly--within seconds--but I still get adequate oven rise. Per Hamelman, I steam immediately before and after loading (hot water in pans with lava rocks). Hamelman's directions call for 15 seconds of steam. So I'm always surprised when people state that you need as much as 15 minutes of steam. I'd love to be able to try baking in an electric oven for comparison.