spelt sourdough levain waiting in fridge--so nervous
I am following a recipe from dabrownman with milled high extraction spelt and some rye. Last night I put my levain im fridge after 3 hrs after the last feed, oother feeds had been 4 hrs apart. It had doubled and I was tired. I am trying so hard to make bread , researching but so short on time . But we need to eat! I am wondering how sucessful I will be today. I am getting the levain out of fridge soon because I think I have to in order not to run out of time. I see some people keep things in the fridge for a lot longer though, I wish I knew if and when this was possible . So I dont know if I need to wait longer for the levain to rise this morning because I may have cut it short ladt night. I am looking for 25% rise. I feel like I will be glued to the bread all day, worrying it will rise too much or wait too long or not enough. Its a day my partner is here for our 2 year old or I would be too busy. That is why I need to umderstand the timing options. So after I autolyse and add together the levain, I think the first 3 sets of slap and fold are 20mins apart then ' sets of stretch amd fold 20mins apart so for 2 hrs in a row-----keep going, no distractions, get it done and in the covered bowl ? Is it easy to do this wrong , will I inevitably not know what its supposed to look like, feel like? I want to ask questions but I am not sure what to ask. I cant see my recipe right at the moment. I think its supposed to rise 70% in the pan after shaping , but also slighly abovr the middle of the rim of the center of the pan. I am just coming on here to learn more. I hope it will still be edible no matter what happens. I do wonder about doing the kneading at night though and then the covered bowl and putting in the pan overnight but it might go too long that way? So exciting but I am so unsure. Whats most important? !!
be edible but delicious too :)
Can you post the link to the recipe you're following?
It'll be fine. I'm currently making spelt loaves 3 times a week and in-between the starter lives in the fridge. I don't refresh it, I'm not even building a levian with it. Jar -> dough and off it goes. (Jar topped up immediately, left out for a few hours then back into the fridge)
Want an overnight loaf - mix/knead in the evening, leave overnight in a cool place (18°C), turn out in the morning, shape prove (in a banneton) no more than an hour, then bake. Works for me...
-Gordon
I am using a big plastic bowl that has a lid. And my pan for rising. Cover both? I have a plastic salad colander but its not the shape of my pan. Maybe my bowl is more hot especially with a tight lid? Cover the bowl with a light towel instead?
So nervous. Going by memory of my videos. I am trying to see that I can take it out of the fridge today and start the process later but not too early or it may rise too long and not too late or it'll just be late. Say I knead at 5pm for 2 hrs. Then put it in the covered (plastic or towel) bowl for an hour and then shape and pan to rise? You seem to do less with the banneton breaking up shaping until morning. ??
195g rye , 343g spelt, 368g water 13g salt & 133gspelt in starter levain with 19g rye starter seed.
My pan is a Pullman pan that is 9x4x4& holds 2024g water so its 1190g dough calculated thanks to dabrownman.
gordon what do you do? Same sets as my directions? For 2 hrs kneading and resting? With no interruptions? Can you explain gentle with spelt? i figure ill be gentle since i will be trying to keep it together. I saw videos but she wasn't using spelt. I dont think she wet her hands or floured them only used the plastic scraper and held onto it well rotating around everytime. If I guess but keep counting and rotating doing twists , willIit still work? Its not like it takes a cecertain touch? And do the test by holding it up to the light to create a window pane of stretch?
After it rests in an oiled bowl and i try to shape it, how long to rise? When you do overnight do you go by the clock? I know you have more experience and consistency but i worry i wont notice 70% rise. What if its too short or too long? Can you link me to one of your detailed directions?
With my oiled bowl do I still oil the pan? Olive oil? And slash with a knife? Well that brings me to the end. I have to get there first but I think of every little thing.
Ok.....if I left it in the fridge now its ok? Because I can knead tonight and let it sit after the bowl? You still cover it all night or while rising? Should I pay a lot of attention to the temperature ?
You won't like this... I don't knead.
Well, not much.
When making the spelts by hand (I usually make 3 or 4 small loaves at a time), I mix the flours (mix of wholmeal and white spelt about 30/70), salt, add the starter (white spelt @ 100%), water and honey then mix by hand in the bowl. Tip out onto the bench and mix for a few seconds more, bundle everything into a shaggy pile with a plastic scraper then cover with the bowl for half an hour. After that I knead it for about 30 seconds which brings it into a tight boulle, then leave it in a bowl or tub covered overnight.
In the morning I tip it out, do a 4-way stretch and fold on it (which gently degases it and tightens it up again) then scale, shape, prove in oval bannetons for about an hour (don't let it over prove) when it will expand then I bake it in a hot oven with steam. It's sometimes quite sticky in the morning - I think that's more to do with the honey I use (the only real variable quantity here - different honeys do make it handle differently!)
I never use oil in a bowl these days - on a short rise it would be fine, but for overnight rises it simply gets absorbed into the dough and the dough sticks to the bowl anyway. A good plastic scraper is a boon.
I always cover dough when its rising - for short rises/proofs then a cloth/linen towel is fine, for longer rises (overnight) then it's clingfilm or the lid in a plastic tub. I don't bother with the window pane test these days either. tight dough immediately after kneading won't test well, but relaxed dough 5-10 minutes after kneading will almost always give a good result.
Slashing - I want through a lot of experiments with spelt. It's funny stuff. Now I just do a single long slash and most of the time it forms nicely.
The key temperatures here is the overnight ferment (9pm to about 5:30am in my case) keep it 18°C or a little lower if possible. It's a bit warmer than there here right now so the dough is a lot more "lively" in the mornings right now.
Recipe: Flour 100%, starter 30%, water 52%, honey 5%, salt 1.5%. (flour is 30% wholemeal, 70% white) A small loaf here has 275g flour in it.
-Gordon
I was going to start this morningbut now that I know I can wait and I really don't feel like I know what I'm doing besides needing to file my nails so they don't get stuck with goo I want to find an easier way if possible. I just don't feel like I have 2 hours to do slaps and stretches, if I have to okay but if there's a way to break up the work and make it a shorter period of time per day that's really what I need because I just can't fit this into my schedule when I really need to be able to bake bread so that we can eat it every day whether that's 3 times a week or whatever works. so I guess I'm going to try an overnight rise but I am still not sure about the kkneading and what allows you Gordon for example to get away with less. my terrible memory I have to read and reread everything that you sayso I am always staring at the paper looking at what to do next. It seems to me it's too late to start the kneadin
g now unless of course I can knead less because two hours or so from now the rise will be not until 8 or 9 at night to bake. right? I will have to keep studying until it sinks in. I think for now I'll just go for it the house is quiet and in two hours I can put it in the bowl hopefully make it by 8 to go in the oven. then of course I worry it won't rise right and will end up needing to stay in the oven too long. Motherhood is too busy for me I feel foolish but food ssensitivities leave me no choice. I stopped to educate myself about how I can do less kneading and the time seems to go by where I could have done it now I don't think I quite get it by tonight so I feel like I need to stick with my original plan on a delay. Is my timing still ok or will I just be baking late? 8 hr rise? maybe I will be llazyand experiment with less kneading and see what happens. Or trydo it fast like you gordon. How else can I cut my kneading time and rising? Is my recipe too different than yours? I need to grind my flour so not sure about white spelt.
Enough for now. Maybe if I dont aim for prefection and I throw it together I will be surprised? throw it together toss it around and put it somewhere warm to hurry it up?!
and that is how you get away with less of it. do you think it would be possible to mix it all up around 10:30am as I am and actually back the same day? is it either start earlier or start late enough in the day that it's not sitting too long overnight? I don't want to drop too much kneading unless I understand why and whats the differnce but I just wish that I could somehow squeeze them together. is the end result of consistency the goal? A tight ball?
30 seconds kneading after mixing and resting half an hour.
However I've just noticed you have a big lot of rye in your mix. Not something I've tried. That's going to make it somewhat sticky, although it might taste nice. The gluten in Rye is not extensible and the gluten in spelt is somewhat slack (stretches out, doesn't spring back)
-Gordon
Might it be faster to make? And grind up 195g spelt to replace it? Or probably more math and more ratio changes?
So you mean my recipe needs more because of the rye? I will remember this and plan better ideas.
Personally I think it's not a good combination from a bread making point of view. However I'm sure from a tasting point of view it's going to have a lot going for it.
I make 100% rye breads and 100% spelt breads but not a hybrid. I do make some wheat + rye hybrids where the gluten in the wheat can provide support for the rye.
I'm sure there are recipes for spelt+ryes out there - if it were me, I'd start with no more than about 15% of the flour weight in rye though. Spelt can be very elastic but not springy if you know what I mean. If not careful, it will turn into a flat disc faster than you can say flying saucer ...
-Gordon
Anxiety! No flying saucers , I have come too far. Can you tell me how much to reduce my rye to in grams amd how much to increase my spelt and water stays the same?
Here is my standard spelt recipe for a small (UK small - 400g) loaf. It actually baked to about 450g ,so its a bit generous.
Flour: 275g (of which 82g is wholemeal spelt and 193g is white spelt). Starter: 82g, water 143g, honey 14g, salt 4g.
at 9pm: Mix, leave 30 minutes, light knead, leave overnight in a cool place. morning, stretch & fold, (one 4-way operation), shape and prove in banneton, bake. I'll be making 4 of these tonight/tomorrow.
20% of 275g is 55g, so you could use 55g of rye and 27g wholemeal spelt (to make up the 82g of wholemeal spelt), then the same white if you want some rye in it.
-Gordon
My pan is for 1190g dough. And I only have high extraction spelt I milled and milled rye. So 55g rye, 28gspelt and another 193g spelt , 143gwater , I have no white spelt. How to increase it to my pan size? I want to skip the honey
But I want to try less rye Because all rye hasnt been working for our sensitivites. I just dont know how to change the formula. Then can I also knead less as you explained? If I mix it now and bake aftrr it rises 8hrs? Or maybe start this aftrrnoon and go overnight. How long mixing and kneading all together? 1/2 or so after mixing it all up? Its worth waiting if I get it right. At least I am buy the internet. I feel so grateful for it. Thank you I am learning so much.
Listen to Drogon, he knows his stuff!
It seems to me that you are 'running before walking', calm down, bake simple bread, then work up from there :)
Do try to enjoy it. Baking bread serves two purposes, either providing a living (Drogon) or a hobby to enjoy and relax with (me). I suspect you are not achieving either right now :)
FWIW: I never set out to earn a crust (hoho) by making bread. It started as a nice little hobby that more or less paid for itself -a way to escape the stresses of the day job at the time. However... If you make good food with good ingredients, people seem to like it ... and ask for more. I only gave-up the "day job" as it were 2 months back...
I enjoy the challenge of the planning and working out complex (for me and my little bakery) jobs - and optimising things. Sometimes it doesn't always work ;-)
-Gordon
30% rye and 70% spelt for a wheat intolerance issue. I gave her one where you build a levain then do 3 sets each of slap and folds and stretch and folds on 20 minute intervals. Then pre-shape and shape and pop it in the pan seam side up and let rise to 1" over the rim ion middle then bake. The dough was sized for her pan.
I'm not sure what she is up to now:-)
I think it would have been a pretty fantastic bread!
I am trying to understand if each slap and fold I am supposed to wait 20 mins and then repeat 3x with a 20min break in between. So it takes an hour. Then another hour for stretch and fold sets with the 20min breaks. And how long is each set , I think the video was about 15mins a set. So total more than a few hours. Am I right???
Thats why gordons way appeals to me to save time.
You are right, I agree I need to relax. My toddler is an very active climber all day long and I am trying to work out a schedule where I can also bake when home alone with my child who needs constant supervision and--a diet change---good bread.
I will keep trying, and forget about improving anything. Hopefully tonight I can put it in the pan for overnight rise unless I can put it in pan and in fridge overnight--yes or no???
Thank you all for reminding me to relax:).
just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here:
slap and fold vs stretch and fold.
When I see "slap and fold" I think of the classic French method of making dough by hand. You scoop up the dough, slap it down on the bench and fold what remains in your hands over the newly flattened lump...
See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOjSp5_YiF0
works with wheat flours, not so good with spelt. useless with rye. You really only want to do this once per lump of dough and it'll take a good 10 minutes to get the dough workable.
Stretch and fold is a much more gentle action. Sometimes called a 4-point fold or a compass fold (as one complete fold involves 4 actions). You pick up the top (12 O'Clock, north) stretch it away from you then over the pile. Repeat for the other 3 quarters. (N, S, E, W, or 3, 6, 9 O'Clock)
This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM
I very (very!) occasionally when in a hurry with wet dough use the French method. (Or throw it in a mixer). I've done it often enough to be reasonably competent with it and feel happy to demonstrate it to others. I perform a stretch and fold on all doughs when I turn them out of the overnight tubs/bowls to firm the dough up before I cut it, then pre-shape/shape/proof/bake.
-Gordon
My experiences with the locals here is that people with a wheat intolerance broadly fall into 3 categories. The first and easy one is those who get ill (bloating, farting, running to the loo, etc.!) on supermarket bread and bread products. When these people switch to organic and long fermented dough breads (sourdough and overnight yeasted) they are a lot better. These people are my favourite type of customer :-)
Some find they can eat spelt without an issue (I spoke to a FODMAP diet follower recently about this too), however these people seem rare. That FODMAP diet person said that Rye was off her diet too. I think most of the people who buy my spelt breads do it because they like it.
Then there are the ones who really can't stomach wheat or spelt at all. For these it's 100% rye breads. My mother in-law falls into this group. Fortunately Andrew Whitleys 100% rye bread (Basic Borodinsky) are so easy to make and they slice thinly well, even toast good too. I have an adaptation of what I think was his original recipe (it didn't come from him, but it's so similar it could have) and that's selling very well right now.
-Gordon
just round into a ball and cover with the mixing bowl. 20 minutes later do it again. yes it willtake znd hour each for the slap and folds and the stretch and folds. Don't try combining this what Gordon does. Just follow the videos I linked you and you will e fine. - no worries.
about it working out. I learned that it was ok to knead it then refrigerate for 12hrs.I tried to beat up the bread for a while but it seemed to keep losing its shape and beat me up instead. Its hot and stuffy. I ended up squshing my fingers into it and pulling it apart because my arms felt tired. Are you all in super good shape or something? If you want, tell me how it was when you first tried to make bread and why you ended up succeding. I had my childfree day and I worried about bread the whole time , now its back to trying to get it done between the daily grind of tasks. I think it practical to sayI may have to give up on this working out , at least right now. I'd love to think its easy but at this point my arms aren't sure. At first it felt ok but once it got loose I had a hard time with sticking and didn't want to add too much water on my hands. The videos sure looked smooth , but I have no idea how hard this is going to be. If I try for a few more hours and its just not balling up, what can I do with it? Is there an easy way to still eat it, something easier then bread yet still simple food? I saw bagels somewhere and I thought that was great because it wont heat up the oven long. Can I roll it out with a roller and try to bake a pizza type bread even if I cant develop the bread glutens?
and let it rise? 60 slap and folds take less than 2 minutes and 30 less than 1. You have 4 minutes of work spread over an hour - hardly tough work.......Picking up and lugging around a 2 year old is way more difficult. You don't have to do slap and folds you can do stretch and folds too. Six sets and you are done, in the pan it goes.
I'm thinking with your young one, you are the perfect candidate for a bread machine. Just dump everything in and push a button - out comes bread.
Just a thought
I think you really are over worrying and over thinking all this. Forget sourdough for the moment, forget rye or spelt too.
Just try baking a simple loaf made with yeast using strong white bread flour. The flour has a much higher gluten content and is much easier and more satisfying to knead. It can all be done from start to finish in about 4 hours. You will learn more, eat more, relax more!
Then (and only then) once you have more experience you can try again with sourdough.
I do not have time to read every post you have made so maybe I have missed something (wheat intolerance?) but the principle is the same. Keep it simple for now!
We all had to start somewhere and experienced failures along the way (I still do!) but experience is a great teacher.
I would suggest you buy commercial breads to eat for the time being and experiment with baking seperately, that way it won't be such a problem when failures occur.
As we have all said before ............. calm down......... relax ........... and enjoy!
I ended up watching it rise on a very unusually hot day and it was right up to the top of pan , I wondered if I over kneaded it or let it sit out too long but it looked exciting. Instead of putting it in partially because it was too hot inside, I waited thinking it might not be ready or because I saw a few holey like bubbles, I poked it with a toothpick, oops and it deflated. So I rolled it into bagel shapes and we ate it. Oh and I ended up adding AP flour because it was too loose even before the rise. So we are testing out our digestion but its hard to say if its the AP flour, another ingredient or underdevoped dough. I am thinking pizza or bagel or something smaller than has less to rise might be easier in general.
the rim of the pan in the middle of the loaf, no poking with a toothpick was ever specified and then in the oven i goes. When it rises to the rim of the pan is when you start the pre heat of the oven. It seems you were about 1/2 an hour short of proofing to perfect and then you blew it all away with the bagel thing:-) I hope you let them rise!
Baking bread is very easy but it helps to follow the directions too:-)
Happy baking
the toothpick was awful! I was too tired to be more rational. I think i remembered miniovens directions and thought it might be a trick :/ I kept poking it ,gently , and it left impressions that sort of stayed there but also filled up the poke spot but not completely. So it was that perfect moment I was wondering about and how perfect of a moment it has to be, how to know. I got stage fright ! I thought since we added flour to it while kneading it might've been too big? Or denser or something? & then we also took of a small golf ball size to try a pizza. Next time I will follow directions--now I'll never know and its more exciting to try again. How would I scrape the top - if I dont want to hurt it?
So if you dont get it just right, it will not be fluffy? How long will that moment last? Will the poke with finger test be more rubbery feeling and definitely fill back up the indentation? When it fills back up is it a really noticable fullness -like a ballon? And if I see some small bubbles - it might not matter?
What do you go by? Are all breads and flours different?
It might've actually rose and touched the plastic lid I put on top and since I saw it was in the way I took it off and for some reason couldn't get a plastic to cover it so I put it back on watching to see if it would hit the top again . Then i got a cloth. if it did hit the plastic top, would it have tried to rise again ifthe lid was in its way? Does a cloth work?
rye breads not low percent ones like this one. The poke test you describe means that it is proofed and ready for the oven and nothing else. There are 3 things that make people fail in what they do, Fear, pride and ego. Fear will keep people from doing the easiest and simplest things required for success - like putting the bread in the oven when ready. No it won't but if it does and you poke it with a toothpick it might deflate Now wonder it didn't reach over the rim like it should have. You stole some of the dough and expected it rise just as high?
If you follow the directions things will always work out but if you don't they won't.
Since it seemed to be losing its shape in the hot room my partner thought to use "dusting" flour. So I also thought maybe thiswould mmake it bigger or maybe denser. The next time I tried, yesterday when I put it in refrigerator before all kneading was complete(!) , it wasnt loose and losing its shape like the other time.
I am thinking if I did all kneading, next time, & it goes in the pan , whats the time limit for it staying in the fridge? I think you said beforeor after shaping... I must check. So maybe it can be in the bowl until shaping. I didnt want to put my Pullman pan in the moist refrigerator, to limit its water exposure. Last night I took the dough out of the pan again after the rise with all the bubbles I told you about , concerned for the pan and seemed maybe too late to save the bread. It didn't deflate so maybe that means it was too full of air? I am curious because now I know what it looks like when its more contracted and tight.
I want 30
it was supposed to say
30% milled high extraction spelt/ and 70% AP white /or white spelt---if a combo works. I would like to test all of these combos but I am not sure if they are interchangable flours for the ratios . I need the recipe for them in my 1190g of dough pan and know how much for build the levain.
I am also curious about the opposite recipe 70% whole grain with 30% white. Is it preference? I want to see how our diet issues respond . Is one type easier to get fluffy results with? Or 50/50 ?
Is milled hard white high extraction would be whole grain? Or say I don't use the bran of what I mill--does that make my spelt anything like white spelt?
A 30 % whole grain bread would be the weight of water that fills the pan divided by 1.90. You would expect the dough to rise 90% before baking . So less dough goes in the pan for a neat white bread.
If you mill hard white wheat whole berries it is a 100% whole grain flour. IF you s and the hard bits are low extraction.ft out the hard bits it become high extraction flour.
you don't need 30 recipes to confuse you even mire. You need to pick one and focus in on it to bake it tiil you get it right and then worry what comes next.
A few days ago I baked another one. I think there is no way I can do all the slap and folds that fast. There just isn't. It probably took me 10 mins? I concentrate a lot, its so new. Maybe if I aim for a sloppier slap. It takes some real effort to get it to go the way I want it to. So I didn't know if I should do less because I handled it more. Things seemed ok after the first set of 30 slap and folds . I didn't want to do the second, well, I say that now because things got mushy and messy after then. The process was not going quickly for me and I felt stickiness setting in on me. Should I go for avoiding that and only do slap snd fold for 2 mins no matter how many I do? Or cut it down somehow before it gets too loose? I was deternined to finish the stretches but by the time I did it was too sticky and I had to wrestle it off me with the bowl scraper. Also when I did slap and folds I felt it took a lot of time picking up the scraper every time. I dont have good coordination.
Thousands if them. Not once did I ever have a dough scraper in my hand except at the end when I was rounding the dough into a ball and cleaning up the counter. I suspect a newbie could do 30 in less than 3 minutes tops. So don't worry about it. Just get them done when you get them done and wait for the next set to go on. What ever you get done will be enough. Just don't do any 2 hours after mixing. Spelt doesn't like to be overworked and rye doesn't care since no gluten is formed anyway. Just let it be and all will be well. Plop it ina oand and let it proof - then bake cool and rat some good bread.
Or the counter? I think it also took me a while to mix the flour and water throughly before adding the levain. It has to be that way? I cant put the water in the bowl then the levain and then the flour with salt? Why/why not?
I think it took 4 hrs and my oven was still preheating which I think takes 1 1/2hrs. So I put it fully risen with the pplastic wrap in fridge. Because I can do that when fully risen or when it goes in the pan -right? At one point I tried to remove the plastic and it was sticking and it deflated but only a little leaving half the bread lumpy looking. I put it back in the fridge. Eventually I took it out and scraped off the plastic with a spatula and put it in the oven even though it deflated a little more. It baked with the top of the dough below the pan. I took its temperature in the pan but out of the oven until I saw 204F. It was nearing a few hours. I figured it was sort of ruined anyway? I took it out of the pan to bake on rack, remembering this idea and wanting to get out of the kitchen. But after out of the pan I was reading much lower temps , maybe 188F. The crust on top was getting so hard.
So? We've been eating it. Its gummy. is it ok to eat or might it be very perishable being so moist?
in the middle it has a larger hole.it does look like bread , I wish I understood more. is it still sourdough because it at least rose?
... nothing to do with the rise but everything to do with the levian - you used a natural derived levian (which incorporates sour components) rather than commercial yeast. That's sourdough.
The large hole in the middle is likely a shaping defect - you maybe trapped a little bit of flour when shaping it for the basket. That's just practice and technique.
If it's gummy it might be underbaked. Make toast...
-Gordon
I dont have one right now but I read it was neccessary so it wont touch the top while rising? I wonder if my minor deflation was from that or also from being too wet into the pan.
success. 188 F is too low a temp but it should't take hours to get there either. What temp did you bake at? Do you have any pictures?
Was I supposed to take temp not in the pan then, ? If it was 204 in the pan? I think I baked at 425 but my oven may be 30degrees lower. I cant tell yet. I need a new oven light to read the temp thru the glass-correct? It didn't seem hot enough , taking so long to heat. Not sure what to do about it.
I'm sorry because that would be great
Its so hot I guess I can hope it will rise really fast. I think my plastic wrap isn't a good idea because it might stick to the risen dough in pan. Is shower cap the best way then? I wonder if last time it was too gummy and wet so it stuck more and ideally the plastic wrap wouldnt stick? But the bread must be covered? If I used a wet cloth , that might help it not stick but only for short rise like when its hot? What about that or trying my big bowl upside down so it wont touch inside a garbage bag?
And dabrownman----can I mix up the levain with flour and water all at once instead of doing the flour and water first ? Why not?
Oh yeah & I fed the levain an hour early once and put it in the fridge two hours late at the end? Just try it? How long is the levain good for in the fridge---beyond baking the day after building it?
oil and the dough won't stick to it. Just put that pan in Plastic f=grocery bakig or a trash can iiner - no worries wiith stickingl
You mix starter with flour and water to make the levain. 3 stages once every 4 hours and your done when it doubkes after the 3rd feeding - then retard if for 24 hour if you want or use it in the dough. A built levain can last a 48 hours in the fridge no worries
Now get to baking
I cant help wanting a pizza. My recipe I have is 300gwhite spelt and 300g starter with 150ml water for a 30cm pizza. And 2 tablespoons oil and 2 teaspoons salt. It says it doesn't take very long. Does that math sound right?
And what if I want to do the same with my milled high extraction spelt, how much to adjust the recipe?
Should the methods be very similar?
Mine says mix, rest the dough in cloth covered bowl, knead, rest 1hr in oily bowl in warm place like oven with light on, then lightly knead roll out and rest 30mins and bake. Baking is 200c for 5-7mins then 180c for 10 mins with toppings. I am in farenhiet but I will convert.
I wanted to run this by you all, I am in awe of your recipes. Sorry I haven't tried one of your recipes yet, my internet is too slow at the moment but I have this recipe and bought white spelt to try. I really want to use my milled stuff though. I had to ask, I love pizza.
How much grams to build the levains?
or you build the 300 g of levain to 100% hydration - equal weights of flour and water with a iot of your NMNF starter.
So I think I can use this for a pizza? Am I not supposed to have any leftover? I weighed It when I took out of fridge. Now its ready to add to my doughball and I am readyfor action.
Can I add 148g whitespelt OR milled spelt and 74ml water and follow the recipe basically almost cutting in half? What is 74ml water in grams? I have a feeling something will be off with the different flours with hydration. Is it? Then I can always make a pizza dough ball when I make this bread.
Dabrownman-you said discard is a no no foryou. Am I doing sosomething off to have created it, ? Or is it not discard but active starter? Anyway I'm baking.
If you need 150 g that is ow much you make from 10 g of NMNF starter. The only way you can end up with more levain is if you made too much to begin with
ml and grams are the same but you are weight the water mot measuring it anyway but 74 ml is 74 g
I'm not sure how many pizzas you ate making but mine are about 250-300 g each. For two pizzas at 600 g total would be
146 g of 100% hydration levain (73 g each flour and water)
600-146 -= 454 g of flour and water for the dough. say 65% hydratiuon gives you
454/1.65 = 275 g of flour and 454-275=179 g of water and 7 g of salt.
This will Give you a 72% hydration overall for (2) 300 g pizzas.
I just put it in with 1 tablespoon oil and teaspoon salt. Way off. So I am getting to streches for the bread now. Trying to do something with this 148g. Maybe I can split my 148 into 2 & only use 74 & half your recipe?my pan is 13" so it would be 2 of those . So I use half 275 flour? & half 179 water? and hope for the best witj salt and oil? Maybe I will use the other 74g levain if I get on a roll but its been out of fridge 2hrs now anyway. . Is my math right for half so using only 74g starter? I started with 148 not 146 so maybe deduct a few grams but it will probably stick to something anyway. Its so hot. On to mystreches for bread.
and didn't get to this post. You can cut the recipe i gave you in half and make one pizza.
So 74g levain---which I will weigh out from my oil and salt mixture that I used with the 148g----then 137.5g flour and 89.5g water for 2 pizzas that are about 13" total 300g.
Yes?
Thank you so much
of that size. Just follow the recipe I gave you above for 2 pizzas. 300 g is enough for one pizza or 2 tiny ones
It was very hot so I thought it would rise faster at the end of the day. It took hours to go from the last inch to half inch then more hours to make it to the rim. I probably should have put it in the fridge then!
I lose so much dough while handeling it at the end it probably would be less than above the rim goal I think.. ? This time I kneaded faster and didnt try hard to shape since it was too sticky then.
If I did put it in the fridge at the rim of the pan, how long can it stay in there assuming its fully risen? Is that a more risky strategy than putting it in the pan before rising into the fridge? & if into the fridge before rising, will it last overnight easily-how many hours?
Is there anyway to still bake and eat it now? It sat out all night since it almost rose and shrank. I am a person that tends to learn the hard way:) At least I kneaded faster but the heat of the heatwave and my oven preheated for all day and my brain fell asleep. Now I'll pay the price. I wish I was confident enough to have put it in the fridge before thinking it might've not been fully rosen or that it would overrise in there. But too late now.
Dabrownman- can I split it into 3 & add the amount of flour and water you told me last time for APflour but use white spelt for pizzas? Is it too late ?
My pizzas were so sticky I couldn't roll them out and get them on the pan. Maybe only use my hands to make a pie shape? I put them in the fridge too. Is it too late to try eating them somehow?
When it is near fully risen it needs to go in the oven not the fridge though. Leaving it out overnight is the worst thing you probably could have done, You seem to have a hard time getting dough in the oven for some reason? Now you have another whole pile of spent levain.
You need to make 1 recipe at a time, follow it to the letter and get it in the oven when proofed. It diesn't do any good at all to make spent levain all the time,
i wanted to grind ahead of time so i thought to freeze it. maybe i can leave it out on the counter overnight? but being frozen affects the flour weight-right? i defintely tried too much ! but pizzas seemed faster to eat of course. i am finally having a quick minute to look at your blog for recipes.
which of these combos will work for the pizza recipe-
always using milled spelt for the levain build and then for the flour
----- milled spelt
------ milled rye
------ white spelt
----- white AP
i think you gave it to me for the milled spelt levain/ white spelt flour combo originally. and i think its also ok for being 100% milled spelt ? maybe some others will work until its time for more math. itd be fun to know i can try white AP. maybe rye is more complicated.
only good for milled spelt/white spelt? minimal kneading. so with the other flours the methods change? should i only so strectch and fold and no slap and folds? at the begginning it say 20 mins light kneading. then after it rests theres a few more kneads.
and its okay in there for 24 hrs right? and that improves the fermented qualites? so if i put it in the fridge i can assume it will be ok and not fully rise for 24 hrs? say i put it in any time of the day maybe around 12pm and then in the morning i can finish rising the bread. or for pizza put it in before resting the dough. now i need to go look at you blog and print!. maybe if i read a lot of your recipes and methods it will make more sense.
i used 5g seed starter to build the levain ,first added 5g flour /water, then 10g then 20g later. is that right? i am trying to do one 300g pizza with 74g starter. and for future reference if i do 2 pizzas then i use 10gseed amd then 20g and 40g for the levain build? i wasnt sure if my numbers were a little off because your example was for 10g seed for the 150gstarter from 10g seed. its close enough but i dont want any extra levain. i hope i can get clear on the flour weight when frozen issue though. i want to keep ginded and sifting the day of the levain build.
5+10+20+40 = 75 G not 74 g. And about right for 300 g of pizza dough.
I would use half whole grain and half AP for the dough at 70% hydration.
300/1.7 = 176 g of flour total. You already have 37 g each of flour an water in the levain so 176 - 57= 119 g of additional flour required and the water would be 300-176 = 124 - 37 = 87 g of additional water and 6 g of salt.
Good luck getting this one one the oven!
i wouldve been trying 137 flour and 89 water if you hadnt corrected me. is it my math is wrong or is it that this 119gflour 87g water is only for half whole grain and half AP?
But still for 2 pizzas its 275flour and 179g water ? though is that for only a certain flour combo? the same half whole grain and half AP? does 1/2whole grain mean any whole grain ?
Thank you
I don't know what flour you have used for building the levain but if it was whole grain then use AP for the entire dough amount or use some whole grain in it. It is up to you how much while grain you want to use.
i used all AP for the dough and spelt for the levain and i think it came out good. i wasnt sure how much to knead it . Like the bread recipe? can someone tell me for this recipe how much kneading i should do?
my oven seems to be reading really low. when i put it to 170f it says much less than 150f . when i put it to 425f it is not even 350f. what temp is the lowest it can be and still make these pizzasa or bread? maybe i need to try cycling the oven on and off to stabilize the temp and move the thermometer? or maybe its just the oven?
i tried the bread again too. it continues to be gummy and after a long time in the oven doesnt read 208. i take it out, it has gotten up near 200 when i read it keeping the bread in the pan. then i think it must be almost done, with the top crust near a burning look. but it seems to keep going down after that point, the temp. i took it out of the pan, thinking maybe its the pan making the temp hotter, which i hope is part of the idea. i hover around it for a while keep checking it, wondering how much longer, sometimes 30mins more and still temp doesnt go up. out of the pan the bread looks wet from the bottom. i put it in the oven on the rack and still temp doesnt go up. an oven issue or something i am doing?
i also wonder how much making toast will transform my wet gummy bread into cooked bread. because with pizza for example, it comes out a little wet also. does this mean that its not cooked ? not fluffy and bread like? it doesnt digest well so i wonder if this is part of the issue. and then i think it may not be shelf stable if its wet inside. correct?
i discovered my trader joes has bread we are tolerating and it is white flour wheat and another is whole wheat. they are sourdoughs. and they are nicely priced so i'm thrilled. but still i want to lower the price and make it. i have no idea why its not causing us issues maybe just being fermented and seeing all the minimal ingreadients i trust it but its really a great thing so on with making some. i read studies were done in europe confirming gluten not being present in wheat sourdough. Gives me hope!
Dabrownman---Can you help me with the math on this? if i do my levain build with spelt what else do i need to change? how much water and AP dough flour for my 2024 pan size? and how to change the kneading process?
i know i keep asking this, but when and if you answer me on the math---can i sub out rye or hard white wheat for the levain build and keep all else the same using AP for dough flour? or will i need 3 recipe ratios and 3 different kneading /rising details? i want to try these all. i can not figure out the math myself or i would. if its not too much to ask, could you give me the info sized to my pan.
everyone kept saying white flour would be easier and i am finally ready. maybe it will fluff up easier to. i think the wetness and heaviness of the other recipes is part of our issues.
I know at some point after hopefully knowing my new AP flour recipes and methods i will want to add flax seeds into the dough for omegas oil benefits. if so, will i need to adjust the recipe again. i think yes but not much. i am beyond bad at the math. thanks to all holding my hand thru this process. my family is thankful too!