Sweet Rolls kneading issue
Hello. I am very new to baking so please bear with me on this. I've made this old recipe for sweet rolls a few time, but I always have a hard time at the end. I mix all the ingredient together, flour, water, eggs, etc. let it rise for an hour or so, and then comes the hard part. The recipe calls for adding butter and shortening after the dough has risen. The dough is really hard to work with after it has risen. It usually ends up breaking into a bunch of pieces rather than mixing together into a nice smooth dough ball. Not sure if it's my lack of good kneading experience, or if I'm doing something else wrong. I was told to add butter and shortening at the end so the dough rises properly. Anyone ever work with a recipe that calls for this, and if so any suggestions on how to work it in without creating a mess. I had one thought of maybe flattening the dough and maybe just folding in the butter and shortening, but this would not allow the butter and shortening to mix all the way in. Maybe that's OK? Don't know. Any ideas?
most recipes of this nature don't work in the way you describe. Typically they melt the butter and whisk it with the other "wet" ingredients inc water/milk, eggs etc and then the "dry" ingredients are added to the wet. The dough should still rise just as well so maybe worth a try.
Her recipe calls for the butter to be kneaded in and my gosh the icky sticky gooey mess this creates is unbelievable. You just have to keep at it, keep kneading, even though it's slippery and separating, round it up and keep on going. It does work its way in eventually and you will end up with a lovely smooth cushion of dough.
to me TBH. Why wait and allow a dough to rise and then knead it again to get butter into it? Surely you're going to deflate any rise you had? A recipe for enriched dough ought to have enough raising agent and yeast food in it such that the dough will proof and rise sufficiently with all the ingredients mixed together. Still, I haven't made these rolls so maybe I'm missing something.
...and the butter is kneaded in before the dough rises, not after. I believe that kneading in the butter gives the bread a much closer crumb.
If you're going to put butter into a dough then you may as well get it spread uniformly throughout the mix otherwise you're going to get clumps of it in different places. The easiest way to achieve consistency is to melt the butter and mix it in. The same is true of other ingredients. When I make breads with baker's yeast, I first dissolve the yeast in the water to make a uniform solution, and then put that into the flour so the yeast is spread everywhere from the outset. When I make English Muffins I warm both the milk and butter and put the resulting mix into the dough from the outset etc etc.
No, no, no. Don't melt the butter!
Butter is an emulsion, if you melt it you break that emulsion, which releases water, freeing it up for the gluten and other water hungry elements. The result of this is a slacker dough and a different texture if the final product. You'll also get a better rise with un-melted butter.
Think of pastry. Butter is there to tenderise by shortening gluten. If the pastry gets to warm, the butter melts and makes the pastry tough because gluten has developed some.
If a formula calls for a large quantity of butter it should be added after gluten has been sufficiently developed.
I used to proof active dry yeast in warm water, but now that I'm using the instant yeast, it goes straight into the flour. A large part of the kneading process is to distribute ingredients throughout the dough. You may, of course, disagree with Julia Child; I choose not to, in this case. She also states that pain de mie can be made without the butter for a leaner bread. I have never had clumps of butter in my pain de mie, as I have always kneaded my dough thoroughly.
Mixing - is the process that distributes the ingredients evenly in the dough
Kneading - is the process used to develop the gluten structure, it is not a process for mixing
If the butter in that recipe is intended to be distributed evenly in the dough then imo it ought to go in at the mixing stage unless for some reason the presence of butter is somehow going to adversely impact the dough formation, gluten formation, yeast activity and so on. If there is such a reason I'm all ears and I say that openly. I'm here to learn as well as contribute so if there's a good reason to keep butter/fats out of a forming dough I'd be interested to know.
I make all my breads by hand so I ensure that ingredients are in a uniform state before they go into the mixing process. If I used a mixer I could happily lob everything into it in its raw state, clumps of butter an' all and know that the mixer will uniformly mix it. I don't ever add anything at the kneading stage. I may add nuts / fruits after kneading once the gluten structure has been developed and before bulk fermentation. Each to their own I guess.
in recipes like these, usually the butter and or shortening are added in after all the other ingredients are well mixed in. The key is to have the butter and shortening at room temperature but not melted . I also use use slap and folds and then let the dough rest before spreading it out in a rectangle and then spreading the soft fat on. I fold it up then do slap and folds for as long as it takes to get a windowpane which is the most important part. Mix everything in first, fat goes in last at room temperature and then work to window pane with a mixer or slap and folds,
I don't know of any recipes that call for the fat going in after completing the first rise but i would gently degas it and then form a rectangle as above with the the dough, spread on room temperature fat and then do just enough slap and folds to get it incorporated and no more since the gluten has already been developed earlier - probably half a minute worth Should be easy enough that way and no worries but getting the fat in there last before the first rise will work better for sure.
Don't melt the butter or the fat - just make sure it is room temperature,
Good tip! What's slap and fold :) Guess I'll google search. Perhaps my mom is not remembering correctly??? This is my dad's mom's recipe and I'm not sure how much grandma shared with my mom. LOL!
The recipe for Sweet dough from Artisan Baking Across America by Maggie Gelzer has a similar method to this as well, where the dough is mixed without the butter or sugar (which are both quite high), then these are added in stages to the dough after gluten development is well underway. The reason is given as this helps give a higher rise, and better gluten development than just a straight mix.
This creates a sticky mess that gets worse after each addition of sugar and butter, but after much slap-and-folding, it comes together wonderfully. I use this method for most of my breads with fairly high butter contents (such as my kugelhopf).
We posted almost at the same time! I think that answers the question and maybe how this bread was so light and airy.
Thanks all. So I guess that is the big question. Is there really any difference in waiting until after the dough has doubled to add the butter/shortening? It seems that the Julia Child's recipe adds the butter after the initial knead, but before the first rise, for a reason. I suppose the only way to find out is to try both methods and see what the difference is. But I don't think I have the time or patience to do two batches in a row :) I remember this bread having a great texture. Definitely more "crumby" I suppose than an average roll. Kind of like a muffin (but not exactly). But still light and airy. I think PaddyL called this "closer crumb". I asked a similar question before and someone suggested using the french fraisage method to work the butter in. If the bread experts think there is no difference in when to add the butter, then I'll add it in with the rest of the ingredients because this would definitely be easier.
after the first rise, and not the sugar too, I would try gettu=ing it in with slap and folds - can;t be too hard that way. There are several videoa on YouTube on how to do slap and folds and this a great way to use them, Baybakin knows her s stuff and if she says it is better to put it in after the first rise I would go with that.
Happy Baking
I would do exactly as the recipe says....there is good reason for the instructions being as they are to achieve the final product as described. It is not 'what' goes into the mix that matters as much as 'how' it goes in. With out knowing the specific recipe there is little more that I can add.
Jeff
I would say that you could put it in at either time, I actually do it after a rest (but not full rise, maybe 30 mins).
I know just enough baking science to add that butter, when added to flour, coats the proteins. (is that right? Or is it that it coats the starches?) In any case, that coating prevents the proteins from bonding with water, therefore hindering the production of gluten. Oils will do a better job of coating than solid (room-temperature) fats. With small amounts of butter or oil, it's not really a concern; the fat is acting as a tenderizer, not coating enough to create a problem in gluten production. As the percentage of fat increases, how and when you add it becomes more important.
I have seen formulas both ways. with the butter added before or after a first rise. The results will vary, I assume, although I've never tested things by doing a recipe two ways. But I'm with PaddyL in that if you just keep kneading, eventually the butter will be absorbed. It's a gloppy mess when you first get going, but you just keep going and eventually the butter is incorporated into the dough.
Here's a little more:
http://www.culinate.com/articles/features/baking_chemistry
You guys are the best. I can't wait to try this! It's so cool to find out that adding butter after is actually done because I haven't found any recipes that call for this. So I think the plan is to mix ingredients, do a normal knead, rise for an hour, and then incorporate the room temperature butter a little at a time with the slap and fold method. This time with a little more patience until the dough comes together nicely. Also, my mom said to shape the dough balls and let rise 15 minutes. But it's not coming out fluffy enough because I think it needs more time than that. I'm going to wait half hour, maybe hour for that second rise and hopefully they won't come out as dense as they have. Still delicious :) but no where near the original. My baking goal is to make my bread exactly like grandma's but I suspect it is going to take me a few years. Of course... I'm going to re-read all of these post so this plan may change :) . Thanks all!