I just want soft white bread...and keep failing....and trying! Going CRAZY!

Hmmm, excuse my ignorance for not knowing what this 'wonder bread' is, I'm supposing it's some kind of sweet sandwich bread.  

The bread in the pictures looks reasonably ok to me, but too airy perhaps.  The deflation as well as the loose structure is a classic indicator of over proofing your dough.  There's a mass of flour and sugar and a heap of yeast there...how long do you give it and at what temperature?  

Near the crust there appear to be some underbaked /high density areas, is that correct?  Are you sure your oven thermostat indicates the correct temperature?  I know it's a sandwich bread and supposed not to be crusty but if you bake it in a Pulmann I'd expect the sides to have a bit more colour.

These are just some thoughts, good luck!

How long are your proofing cycles? 1 Tablespoon of yeast is a LOT for only 3 2/3 cup flour so you're probably overproofing. I'd cut that back to 2 teaspoons at most.

Overproofing your dough will cause it to collapse on itself and then fail to bake properly due to the density.

[double post]

190 is underbaked for bread.  Try 205F - 210F

In my opinion, for soft, encriched breads 190 is definitely sufficient, although I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibilty that her loaves are underbaked. I generally only bake lean, hearth breads above 200 degrees.

I just want to put one thing out there. Its about bread temp and Im going to get alot of volleys back into my court about it. I have the research to back my claim. Bread reaches that 200-ish temp when its 60% through its bake. If your pulling your bread at that temp then its under baked. I can see from your pics that the sides dont have much color. It is collapsing due to the crumb not being set and unable to support the weight of the dough. Temp is not a good indicator of doneness. Here is my suggestion. Take one of your breads and bake it, as you normally would, intill it reaches your desired crust color. Let it cool and check the crumb. Is it to dry or wet? Then adjust the baking temp to achive the desired crumb. So, crumb to wet lower the temp so crust and crumb are done at the same time. Crumb to dry raise the temp. In the top pic the loaf in front doesnt suffer as much from wrinkling and the side color looks better showing it probably baked a little longer than the one behind it. Since these are slightly enriched breads dont worry about a hard crust when it comes out of the oven. It will steam as it cools and soften the crust. Also, make sure you are using the right amount of dough for your pan. I place my pan on a scale and zero it. I then fill it with water and see what it weighs. I reduce that weight by a third and give it a try. You may need to make small adjustments for different dough types and to suit your preferences.

and the most difficult bread to try to mimic at home.  You need to think like a company just about to go bankrupt because they can't sell their bread for enough money to cover the cost of ingredients, union worker wages, retirement plans and medical costs.   So the cost of your ingredients has to come way down.

First off, they would use the cheapest ingredients possible.  No bread flour, potato flour, buttermilk or butter.  They would use the cheapest AP flour they could lay their hands on and use VWG to boost the gluten enough to make a cheaper bread flour.  They would use dough enhancer but they also add all the vitamins and minerals the government made them put in too.  They would also use margarine and or really cheap veg oil in place of the butter .  No buttermilk wanted or needed in their book - way too expansive.  They would use water and dry milk powder since they don't want to store milk at the bakery, refrigerate it or have it get contaminated.

I think of you go that route you will get closer to the recipe you want.  But if you are making bread like that you might consider the store brand 100% whoie wheat, 24 oz sandwich loaf.  It is on sale for a buck a loaf somewhere arond here everyt week.  You can't make it as well or for that price.

Looking at your formula, I'd say it was a little long on the yeast, a lot long on the sweeteners (yes, I'm looking at an old reliable recipe in cups and such) and a little short on the salt.

Beyond that, I'd say that the amount of flour is low for the pullman pans you are using.  You are probably letting it proof until it fills the pan - and the pictures that you show are loaves that are over proofed.

Oven temps for panned breads are higher than one might think - 400-425F.  I once was doing panned breads in an oven that was way low on temperature and the profile of my breads was much like yours.

That big hole in the right cross section is a shaping flaw.  You need to have a firm hand with these breads and get the air holes out during shaping. 

The loaves are also underbaked.  I study with an individual who is - as I like to say - very well qualified.  I have never seen this person use a thermometer to check for a loaf being done.  You want to tip the loaf out of the pan.  If the bottom is pale, it it not baked enough.  If the bottom is nicely brown, give the loaf a good thump with your finger - it should sound hollow.  Some folks get not information from this test - I happen to have a pretty good sense of pitch, so I can tell from the pitch the done-ness of the loaf.  But this is a classic test of bread being done.  Often I will remove the loaf from the pan and bake it just a little more to make sure the sides and bottoms are well and truely done.

The crust will color if the loaf is well baked.  You cannot avoid this.  You can mitigate it somewaht by tenting with foil, but well baked bread is going to be brown.  Brush the top crust with butter.  Sometimes (oh the horror!) I'll just cut the crusts off if I really want a white, white bread.

Also, you mention a 50lb bag of flour, but not what kind.  A flour a little higher in protien (say 11-12 percent) will yield a better panned loaf.  One key to these fluffly breads is intensive mixing (if you look at the post referenced above, you will see this).  Although a bread machine will come close to this, it will not come close enough.  You need to mix at higher speeds for a longer time than the bread machine will.

I actually do use a bread machine for my summertime baking. I find that for me it can produce a soft, well textured bread, but not having eaten these store bought white breads for many, many years, my perspective is different.

I have the same challenge - I've got a long term house guest who will only eat store bought bread (and will not eat anything that he suspects has whole grain in it).  I've produced what I judge to be very soft bread (not using the bread machine) and yet it goes uneaten and bread is purchased.  Food is a funny thing - sometimes folks get caught in a rut and only want what they have always had. You may have that kind of challenge before you - hopefully, being a mom first, you will be able to broaden your children's tastes over time.

Good luck and Happy baking.

Some ideas for a little recipe tweaking-in addition to above ideas.

Bread flour imparts a chewiness to bread. I would make this recipe with a good, unbleached  AP flour (Gold Medal, Pillsbury, Dakota Maid, King Arthur). I find the bleached flour does not gel out enough to get a good bread structure and that is when you need another ingredient to add that capability.  Bread is all about developing both the gluten and the starch in the flour. That is what you are doing when you knead to "windowpane". THat is actually essential to get good crumb structure.

What is in the homemade dough enhancer? Ginger? Malted barley?

Too much yeast. 1-2tsp max or all you taste is yeast.

Salt seems a bit high though if Wonderbread is a goal, that may be what your palate wants. That is the amount I would put into about 5- 6 cups of flour but salt taste is highly individual. .

Potato flour or potato starch? Either of these can contribute to some gumminess in the crumb as you chew. Potato flour or starch is used to add starchy gel to a product that either doesn't have enough or is not developed enough with the given technique used to make the dough. If you use an unbleached flour, enough moisture and develop the dough to windowpane, you don't need this kind of starch added.

Potato flakes, on the other hand, like cooked/mashed potato, can make the crumb softer without making it dense or gummy. It is more of a moisturizer than a gel contributor. Take a look at Mark making potato rolls in this video:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32954/potato-rolls-video

I believe the key in achieving what you want is in the technique, as well. Enriched dough, potatoes for afterbaked softness, kneading to windowpane.

Shreddable bread:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23662/sourdough-hokkaido-milk-loaf-classic-shreddable-soft-bread

Windowpane:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20669/sourdough-pan-de-mie-how-make-quotshreddablyquot-soft-bread

Both of these are wonderfully illustrated as to what you want to achieve.

Now about proofing.That is the next thing to talk about with your loaves. Look in the search for "fingerpoke test for proofing. It takes a lot of practice to learn when a particular dough is appropriately proofed. If it is over or underproofed you can get a sunken,dense or unevenly risen loaf. Read about it and practice. Come back with pics of the crumb and ask about it. You will start to see what to evaluate.

Keep experimenting! Just bake them some chocolate cake at the same time. I never hear complaints about that.

I strongly recommend getting away from cup measures and switch to measuring by weight.  You can get a decent digital scale these days for under $25.  Try Polder, Escali, or MyWeigh.

Also try a simpler recipe - you've got an awful lot going on in that recipe with all that "home made dough enhancer", potato flour (btw is that actual potato flour, or potato flakes that you are using?) and what not.

Make sure you are putting 24 oz to 30 oz of dough in the pan - a 13" pullman pan is typically stated to have a capacity of 1.5 lbs of dough, but that varies some depending on the dough.  Find the right amount for a given recipe that fills the pan without overfilling, note it down, and use that amount every time.

Here are some by-weight versions that might help you - I recommend trying Moomie/Ellen's recipe (the first one listed below) - technically it's for hamburger buns but it makes pretty darn good fluffy white stuff too.

Beautiful Burger Buns by Moomie/Ellen

White Breakfast Bread

Toast & Sandwich Bread - Note that 3 c of KAF AP flour is 12.75 oz

Walter Sands' Basic White Bread

Potato bread pain de mie style (in a pullman pan) - 4.25 c of KAF AP flour is 18 oz

KAF Classic White Bread

Classic Pain de Mie (pullman pan style)

Just curious.

In my kitchen, I weigh 1 c bread flour at 144g/cup using the dip and scrape method. So 3.66c x 144g/cup=527g.

I don't think there are proportion issues in this formula. I believe it is technique and proofing issues. Changing technique to knead to windowpane and proofing properly will dramatically improve the outcome.

I also believe the outcome would also be improved by using potato flakes instead of potato starch/flour and switching to a lower gluten flour like an unbleached AP.

I personally like a bolder bake on my breads. If it browns too quickly, next time bake at a slightly lower temp for longer and don't slice the loaf until completely cooled.

Have fun!

Let's ignore the worry over converting from cups to grams (I use whatever is on the side of the bag of flour I am using, btw, which is usually 1/4c to 27 to 30 g).

But instead just look at the recipe in grams as she has written it.

From that it doesn't look too wet or too dry to any great extent - don't forget to consider the addition of the potato flour, it is significant and affects hydration. 

A good part of the buttermilk is fat and milk solids, about 90% is water.  So about 108 g of water from the buttermilk.

There is also water in butter - about 18% in the US.  So another 15.3 g of the wet stuff. 

EDIT:  And dang, I forgot about the honey!  Probably subconsciously on purpose, because honey varies in moisture.

"According to the United States Standards for Grades of Extracted Honey, honey may not contain more than 18.6 percent moisture to qualify for U.S. grade A (U.S. Fancy) and U.S. grade B (U.S. Choice). Grade C (U.S. Standard) honey may contain up to 20 percent water; any higher amount places a honey in U.S. grade D (Substandard)."

Let's call it 18.5% and assume it wasn't grade C honey.  So that's another 7.4g of water. 

Now 240 ml water is about a cup (like 1.01 cups) so I'm going to assume that was about a cup of room temp water.  Normally you assume the density of water is 1, but that's at a particular temp that I can't recall off the top of my head (probably near 0C) - at room temp a cup of water (if the cup measure is accurate, which is questionable) would weigh 8.3 oz or about 235 g.  So I'm going to assume 235g of water. 

BTW it is best to weigh your liquids as well as your solids.  I don't worry about weighing salt or yeast or other very small amounts, but anything more than a T or 2 I weigh.  Just makes it easier to figure hydration, scale up and down, etc.

So you have about 365.3 g total of water to about 585 g of dry ingredient (flour PLUS potato flour).  This is 365.3/585 = 62 %.

I think that's in the realm of normal hydration for that type of bread. I would suggest working from there if adjustment is needed because of the additional fat and other dry ingredients (such as the dry milk) in the recipe.

BTW - and perhaps not insignificant - what's the home made dough enhancer consist of?

I saw where someone suggested switching to "normal" AP for this bread.  I wouldn't suggest doing that.  I would stick with the flour you are using, or something in the range of 11.7% protein such as King Arthur AP flour or (where I lived in the South) the Costco/Sam's ConAgra bread flour, which (in the south, NOT in the north or midwest) came in at around 11.6% protein. 

Although King Arthur has labeled their 11.7% flour as AP, it is actually NOT AP as we in most of the US think of it.  AP flour (all-purpose) in the US tends to be around 10.5% protein - a bit higher for regional brands in the North, and sometimes considerably lower for regional brands in the South.  So in practice, King Arthur's AP flour (and this is true of Robin Hood and some other Northern/Canadian brands as well) is actually bread flour, despite being labeled AP.

However, in the North and Canada, AP flour is higher in protein content - 11.5% to 12%.

The difference is regional, because of the wheat that grows locally.  In general, wheat in warm weather regions is lower in protein content (hence the "biscuit culture" of the south) and what grows in cooler regions is higher in protein content.  There are specific exceptions to the rule - for instance, the wheat used in White Lily flour (southern AP type) is mostly grown in Ohio (and has been for over a century).

But anyway, the point is, that what WE think of as AP flour is not going to make any kind of bread you'd want to eat.  So stick with your higher protein flour, it's what will make a decent loaf.

The AP flour brands that I mentioned will make a wonderful loaf of soft sandwich bread IF there is adequate development to windowpane of the starch and gluten. A slightly higher hydration makes that easier but it is entirely doable as written. If the flour available was not capable, or the baker is not able to get the dough to windowpane,then definitely stick with bread flour. I had hand surgeries last year- I did batter breads for a while.

So using bread flour versus AP flour becomes a matter of personal taste as to the chewiness of the bread or the lack of ability to knead to windowpane. I don't care for chewy bread,myself, but I seem to be sensitive to that characteristic.

So do what works for you and develop the recipe and technique as works for you. Definitely work on technique and proofing skill. 

I am gobsmacked over the complication of this thread! If your family wants Wonderbread, why not just just purchase Wonderbread? Your loaves are costing you time and money that make them more expensive than an Artisan baked bread from a reputable bakery! You would do better to get yourself a good (Kitchenaid or Cuisinart) stand mixer and start making some really good bread. Bet the family will begin to eat your delicious bread, made the simple, good old fashioned way; without all the additives. 

I use 16 oz water to 28 oz of white flour. 1 1/2 tsps yeast, 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup lard, 1/4 tsp ground ginger, 1/2 cup dry milk, 2 tsps salt. Split the flour in half make a sponge with all the water and honey 1/2 tsp yeast, let it rise for 45 mins, then stir down with salt and softened lard, then mix yeast and flour together add to sponge, knead for 10 mins cover and let rise for 1 hr, then turn out shape either into one Pullman loaf or two regular loaves, let rise until doubled and bake for 1 hr @ 350°F or  180°C in middle rack in the oven. Turn out onto rack. Let bread stand for two hours before storing. This bread tastes like store bread, toasts like a dream and makes great crumbs... And...wait for it....it doesn't mould! 

vicki!

Don't double your recipe. I sized this recipe for a 5.5 qt Cuisinart, which is the same equivalent as a 6qt KA. any more and you over work your machine. Here is my method, exactly:

(I used to bake 65 loaves a week using this recipe although much larger quantities for a big Hobbart!)

(This recipe never seems to fail me, unless I get ambitious and try to add something I shouldn't like wheatgerm... find another recipe for that. But you can make whole wheat with the same quantities.. I use Bread Flour not All Purpose. Use whole Wheat for Bread too.) 

Ingredients:

I. Sponge
2 tsps Rapid rise Yeast (or: .65 oz of active dry yeast) I use one tsp of Rapid Rise in sponge and then add the other with the dough
16 ounces warm (105-110°F) water
1/4 tsp ground ginger
1/4 cup honey)
14 ounces unbleached white 
1/2 cup nonfat dry powdered milk

II. Dough
1/4 cup lard at room temp

21/4 teaspoons salt

1 tsp Rapid Rise yeast

14 ounces unbleached white.

Directions:

Bench flour if necessary

Heat mixing bowl with very hot water.

I. Sponge

Mix Flour and Rapid Rise Yeast together.

( For Rapid Rise Yeast: Place warm water, honey or molasses and brown sugar mix and yeast in the mixing bowl. Let stand 5 to 10 minutes until mixture is foamy and bubbly.)

While yeast is proofing, combine 14ounces bread flour with powdered milk. Add the flour mixture to the yeast mixture.

Insert the flat blade blend on  "Stir" until flour is damp, then beat on speed 3 for 2 minutes. ( Equivalent to 100 strokes of a wooden spoon). Remove paddle and lift the top of the mixer and cover with plastic wrap tightly.

Let sponge rise for 45 mins.

I. Dough

Put the paddle back on . Sprinkle salt over dough and add lard in blobs incorporation 2 until invisible. And then add white flour and yeast and blend on Stir until dough is all incorporated and shaggy.

Change to dough hook.

Turn the mixer to 3 and knead for 10 mins

Place dough in a warmed bowl and with 1 Tbsp Olive oil oil the bowl and the bread dough. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and let rise for 2 hours or until doubled.

Turn out dough in to floured board. 

Cut into two loaves and make 2 tight balls and cover for 5 mins to let them rest then shape into loaves by rolling the dough from the top down the length, making sure you seal it well as you roll. Place loaves into loaf pans that are lightly sprayed with nonstick spray. Dust loaves with flour and cover. Let the loaves rise until they are above the top of loaf pans, about 1 hour. 

Bake at 350 (convection bake) for 1hour. Remove from pans immediately and let them cool for at least 2 hours. 

Hope this helps you out. Now it won't be floppy and flaccid like Wonder bread it will have body and flavour. don't put it in the fridge! Yes it will fill a Pullman loaf pan as it makes ore than 2 lbs of bread.

Do you mean by "roux" a starter? The sponge in this recipe is a little too liquid for an overnight rise, the 45 mins give you lots of flavour. the lard has the same fat components as butter. Avoid putting canola product into bread dough, it make your bread taste like paint! Lard give a nice flavour.  Use lard it is cheap and cheerful. If you are using rapid rise yeast don't overdo it! You are killing it with kindness. (If you are using active dry yeast then in this recipe use 1 1/2 Tbsps, dissolve in water and honey. Let it stand for 10 mins.)

Looks like a winning recipe. I'd love to see the followup.

For Rodinka47:

A "roux" is actually a mix of flour and water that is heated to be like a custard and cooled and is added to the dough. Here is a great link from Floyd. He has a great step-by-step with pics.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32997/hokkaido-milk-bread-tangzhong

The method is very simple and adds a great deal of softness to the crumb. It adds the same benefit as a good sponge and kneading to windowpane like your recipe. If you use it with whole wheat it makes it even softer.

I am not a fussy baker. If I want to use a roux, I take a tablespoon of the existing flour in a recipe (it only needs about a tablespoon for every 1-2 loaves)and then I just use the liquid from the recipe to make the custard. The ratio is 1:5 by weight of flour:liquid. I have done it by volume (1 tbsp. flour:5 tbsp. water) before I realized it was supposed to be by weight and it worked fine-just a thicker custard.I do VERY short bursts in the microwave-watch closely and stir often.  The problem that can be had is when the original recipe is on the drier side (as in above) in which case, I might just add 5 tbsp. water to the 1 tbsp. flour and make that as extra liquid in the dough. I tend to make wetter doughs so it isn't usually a consideration.

Try it sometime-easy way to add softness to any bread but it is still important to knead to windowpane!

would be to bulk raise twice, knocking down efficiently flattening the dough each time.  This will get you that fine crumb. It just has too much gas from the generous portion of yeast.  Then take in Pat's (Proth5) suggestions.  

Sometimes an over abundance of yeast can be fun, just know how to tame the beast.  Always save some rising for the oven heat.  :)   (ginger is a nice touch too!)

There are 5" loaf pans, but a 5" pullman pan seems to be scarce to nonexistent.  However you can make your own pullman pan out of a regular loaf pan by putting a weighted cover on top of it - I use a cast iron griddle.

Glad your bread is coming out more the way you want it.  Perseverance usually pays off, especially when you are open to finding new ways to do things.