Sour flavour was good, now its not ?
Hi all,
I've been using my home made starter for a couple of years with good results but recently I have learned a little more about feeding ratios in an attempt to get a more active starter and establish a predictable sourdough regime. But the last two baking sessions (two SD loaves per session) have resulted in almost no SD flavour, whereas before I was getting a very pronounced sourness in my loaves.
Without rattling off my entire regime to you, here are a couple of things which have changed and I'm hoping someone might be able to pinpoint where I'm losing my sour flavour.
Firstly, my crumb and moisture are the same as before when I had good sourness. My rising and proving are pretty much the same time frames too. The loaves are coming out great, just no sourness now.
Whats different are a) my feeding ratio b) I'm using slightly more starter per batch. My feeding ratio is 1:1:1 when my starter is idle for several days, and then a day or two before baking I use 1:4:2. The starter generally takes only about 3 hrs to tripple in size after that.
On Baking day I mix my dough quite early in the morning, the dough generally takes all day to double during which time I fold three times. After dinner around 8-9 pm I cut and shape my loaves then place them in the fridge to retard overnight, then bake them off the next morning around breakfast time.
I'm wondering if my starter, now that its more active than before, is the problem. And because I'm using more starter, 100 gms, maybe its rising my dough too quickly ?
Also, should I be cold retarding the way I'm doing it ? or should I be retarding earlier before the initial rise ? Lots of questions really, hope you can shed some light.
Hi Noyeast,
I've had a similar experience. I don't have "the Answer" for you, but a bit of speculation: It seems to be agreed that the sourness is produced by ascorbic (?) acid formed by one of the bacteria types in sourdough. Growth of the acid production seems to be promoted by long cool dough rises....But!
I can't get clarity on how to promote the sour bacteria in the starter mixture. It seems to me that when I refresh a starter by taking a couple of tablespoons of previous starter and feeding it at room temperature, the CO2 bacteria have the advantage. Does keeping the starter in the refrigerator help the sour bacteria grow?
So, my big questions, and I think/hope it relates to your post, are: What treatments of starter and dough promote sourness? Does a starter have to be managed in some particular way to be best for a sour taste? Can a starter that smells sweet produce a sour bread? (I've had some starters that smelled extremely sour).
I don't know if all this is helpful, Noyeast, I hope it is of some use in searching out the answers we both seem to want.
Regards,
GregS
It might be useful to know your temperatures and if said starter is "idling" in a refrigerator with details. Temperature plays a major role in fermenting.
Also is 1:4:2 S:W:F or S:F:W? One doubles the flour and creates a thinner starter that eats through food faster; the other a firm starter. It might be more beneficial to overfeed or thicken the starter before idling (refrigeration) so that yeast numbers are easier to maintain over an extended length of time. Could it be that the reason you are using more starter in the dough is because the yeast numbers have dropped off?
Logically (temps being the same) if the starter amount is increased, then the rising times would shorten. If the rising times are the same, and there is less sour, then it stands to reason that the yeast (and its partnership with LABs) is weakening. Overproofed dough gets more sour, so lack of sour might imply again weaker yeasts. Of course temperature plays a role. If the room temperature is low, rising times will take longer. If dough temperature is lowered using cold water, it will also slow down rise times.
A sweet starter will not normally give sour bread unless fermentation is taken to extremes. I have not tried that yet. Maybe someone with a sweet starter has experience or would try it and let us know.
I believe the key is: Maintain good yeast numbers in the starter and the sour producing bacteria will keep up or take care of themselves. Having a sour tasting starter means that there is enough activity to keep a low pH after a particular time. (Remember low pH is acid, high pH is alkaline or base) If the (1:1:1) starter is fed often, say 3 times a day, the pH will not go as low as if it were fed every 12 hours at the same temperature. It fed once a day, the pH will go lower for as the food is used up, the later acting bacteria will still kick out acid. This is a natural process for yeasts in nature, when conditions do not favor growth, self preservation kicks in. If the pH stays low for too long, various yeasts may stop all activity and go to sleep. So a non-regular feeding schedule may leave one with a starter that is loosing rising power. Feeding the starter raises the starter pH and lets the yeasts know that conditions favor growth, so they grow.
Maintaining a starter and getting dough to get sour are similar yet different. The starter sour is an indication that the starter should be maintained by feeding. The dough is an end result product and can ferment beyond the maintainance point of the starter and can be allowed to ferment further (developing sour) before baking. We do want some available yeast food left in the dough so that it browns nicely in the oven. If we let it ferment too long then we experience overproofing.
It is more important to maintain a healthy yeasty starter than to promote sour flavor in the sourdough culture itself (that being a sign of underfeeding) and to manipulate the bread dough to achieve the sourness desired.
If your starter has been maintained 1:1:1 for such an extended period of time, it may be very sensitive to feeding changes.
Mini
thanks GregS and Mini for your replies.
Two things have emerged for me at this stage, I can be fairly sure that the 'nature' of my starter has changed due to a more active baking regime of late, and this is most likely the cause of my no-sourness problem.
And the second thing is, I should be able to achieve once again, the sour flavour I used to get by modifying my feeding and subsequently my bread fermentation and proofing by understanding what conditions effect the organisms.
I'm not too sure I understand fully how the organisms are effected yet, but I will re-read your comments above and try to apply the information over the next couple of weeks. As I write I have dough on the bench which has been fermenting slower (cooler) and almost ready for final shaping. In this batch I brought the cold retardation forward several hours and so the final stage of proving before baking will be done, not in the fridge as before, but in the kitchen.
To answer Mini's question my ratio is SFW, so I am trying to achieve a firmer starter when preparing the starter to bake with whilst also keeping the firmness 'manageable' at mixing time by not being too firm. Does that sound ok ?
oh sorry Mini I just re-read your post and realised I have forgotten to supply further information so here goes:
My starter is normally kept in the fridge when I'm not baking, up to several months at a time, in this instance I feed only occasionaly 1:1:1
When in baking mode, I bake two or three times a week for several weeks, during this time the starter is not kept in the fridge but on the benchtop. It is winter here and the ambient temp is quite cool in the house but nothing like the fridge.
I began using more starter only recently to try and speed up my baking from 36 hrs to 24 hrs. Which I have achieved. Great bread but no sourness.
I am now thinking that perhaps my starter is not being left long enough after feeding to become active enough, perhaps I am using it too soon after feeding ?
Currently I am using it anywhere between 3 and 5 hrs after the 1:4:1 SFW feeding.
Is this too soon do you think ?
The fast feeding/using is one known way to reduce sour in the bread. When starters are maintained on a 6 hr schedule, sourness drops. You could add more (warm) water making it a 1:4:4 and it would be ready sooner. The drier the starter, the longer it takes to ferment and go thru reproductive cycles. Reducing the water in the starter from 100% to 33% slows down the fermenting time. If one thinks that a reproductive cycle takes from 1.5 to 2 hours at ideal temperatures, then they have not really eaten up the new starter flour to be at their full potential. It might be good to let them have a few cycles before feeding/using them with dough. Try 6-8 hours or more esp. in a cool room.
Mini
Hi again, Noyeast.
This great thread comes from Mini's list of favorites (click on her name in a post). It is loaded with ideas, speculations, and a lot of good clues. I think it is well worth reading. Thank you Mini!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8369/how-to-get-back-sourness-your-starter-lost
thanks Greg, great thread and I have tried to absorb the info from Mini.
Paul.
The research associated with the Detmolder Method suggest that
1/ Yeast growth is most favored about 78ºF. in a 140 to 150% HL
2/ For "basic sour", a stiff-textured mix of 60-65% HL at 82ºF is optimal for for developing the acetic acid potential of the starter and that 15 to 24 hours is a good period for the development.
3/ For "full sour", or the lactic acid, they say 85ºF with a 100% HL starter mix is best.
The method is primarily interested in rye starters, but the "wee beasties" are pretty much the same.
You also may find the info at
http://www.samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/index.html
worth going through.
Ron
That's very helpful.
One little difference between rye starters and wheat starters is that rye beasties like everything warmer than wheat beasties by a few degrees C. So slightly cooler temps would be ideal for wheat. I don't know why that is.
Mini
That is interesting, and good to know.
Ron