The Giorilli Panettone
Dear fellow bakers,
I thought I would share with you the results of my first attempt to make real, non-yeasted, panettone. I had made yeasted ones quite a few times before, and I thought it was time to make the real deal. I chose maestro Giorilli's formula that is available here: https://www.giorilli.com/ricette-item/panettone-con-uvetta-e-noci/
This particular formula has nuts in it which I substituted with raisins because I wanted to create a more traditional type with dried fruits instead of nuts. This time I didn't add candied orange and lemon peels, just raisins. The process itself was so demanding and exhausting that I didn't have the energy to make the candied fruits. Otherwise, I followed the formula, scaled down to the size of molds I have. The amounts came out as follows:
1st Dough
228 g water
130 g pasta madre at 50% hydration, refreshed 3 times at 4-hour intervals at 28 degrees
460 g strong flour
142 g sugar
136 g butter
104 g egg yolks
Aromatic Mix
30 g acacia honey
½ vanilla pod
1 grated orange peel
1 grated lemon peel
2nd Dough
116 g strong flour
3.6 g malt (I actually left this one out completely because I didn't have malt, and the formula still worked)
126 g sugar
184 g egg yolks
8 g salt
All the aromatic mix
240 g butter
20 g melted butter
440 g sultanas
These amounts make two panettoni of 1 kg each.
I didn't have Italian panettone flour, so I used King Arthur Bread flour (12.7% gluten-forming protein content) with the combination of vital wheat gluten in order to get the gluten-forming protein up to 15 %. I used Foodgeek's Gluten Calculator, which was very useful: https://foodgeek.dk/en/vital-wheat-gluten-calculator/
Since I am an amateur baker who bakes occasionally, I don't maintain a pasta madre because it just wouldn't make sense to me to do so. Instead, I created a pasta madre only for this project by taking a piece from my stiff 50%-hydration starter I use for my sourdough bread and converting it into pasta madre. I started the process about one week before baking. I made sure that the pasta madre would get at least one warm 4-hour refreshment per day at 28 degrees Celsius excluding the daily maintenance feeding at 18 degrees for 12-20 hours, depending on my schedule. Occasionally, I would perform a 20-minute bagnetto before the first refreshment of the day. The day before making the first dough, I fed it four times according to the following schedule:
8:30 am: bagnetto
9 am: 1st refreshment at 28 degrees
1 pm: 2nd refreshment at 28 degrees
5 pm: 3rd refreshment at 28 degrees
9 pm: maintenance feeding at 18 degrees for 12 hours
Schedule on the day of making the first dough:
8:30 am: bagnetto
9 am: 1st refreshment at 28 degrees
1 pm: 2nd refreshment at 28 degrees
5 pm: 3rd refreshment at 28 degrees
9 pm: mixing of the first dough
All these feedings were at the ratio of 1:1 (levain:flour).
I don't have a PH meter but I often smelled and even tasted the pasta madre during the process. It never tasted too acidic (excess amount of acetic acid) or bitter (excess amount of lactic acid). Neither did it taste bland (trait of a LM too weak). It had a pleasant fermented taste, so I thought I was on the right track. Also, I always made sure that it tripled each time at 28 degrees within 4 hours, which it did.
One final word about the pasta madre's hydration. I have noticed that the typical hydration is usually below 50%, more like between 40% and 45%. I decided to use a 50%-hydration pasta madre because it seemed to produce the right consistency for my flour. I tried 45% hydration before and it took forever to achieve a smooth dough, it just seemed too dry.
As for PM conservation method, I opted for the "dry method", that is, not bound in cloth and not kept in water. Instead, I would keep in in a glass jar. I know that PM maintained via this method has the tendency to develop excess acidity. That's why I performed bagnetto often. The other two methods seemed too complicated for an occasional baker like me.
I have recently bought a KitchenAid Professional 5 Plus, which is a decent mixer but could be more efficient when mixing panettone dough. Hence, my mixing times came out to be much longer than those recommended in the formula. I mixed the first dough for 50 minutes, and the second dough for 1 hour and 15 minutes. Luckily, my kitchen is cold (16 degrees Celsius), so the dough didn't heat up much.
I let the first dough rise for 14 hours at 24 degrees. I wanted to make sure it indeed had tripled, that's why I went a little longer than 12 hours.
After mixing the second dough, I let it rest for 30 minutes, then divided and preshaped, then another 30-minute rest, then final shaped and placed in the molds. They rose for 6 and a half hours at 28 degrees, then baked for 1 hour at 350 F (176 Celsius).
Being this my first real panettone, I am very pleased with the results. The dough came together very nicely during both mixes, with a definite windowpane at the end each time. The ovenspring was also quite big, although I think I should proof them maybe a little less next time, as they spread also sideways, not only upwards, creating a mushroom-like shape which I was not going for. The resulting crumb is very soft and fluffy, really light. The taste is amazing, and no sour notes!
I hope that people will read this post and give me opinions and suggestions on how to make the next bake even better. I do have one question regarding the formula, and I hope someone can answer.
Giorilli is very specific about finishing the second mix with a small dose of melted butter after incorporating all the soft but not melted butter, just before adding the fruits. What is the purpose of the small dose of melted butter? I did it the way he suggested, and it worked well, but I also saw many videos in which they don't finish off the mix with melted butter, but only soft butter. Any ideas?
I also want to thank Michael Wilson panettone expert on TFL, who gave my invaluable insights and suggestions on pasta madre management!
Peter
Comments
This bake looks superb to me, nice work. Dang, this looks to be a lot prep work but I might up for a challenge to make this one of these days. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Thank you so much. As for prep work, it is indeed not something that you put together in a couple of hours, but it is definitely worth it! When you decide to make it, let us know how it went.
Wow, that is super impressive Peter, especially so being your first panettone. You wouldn’t know that you weren’t a seasoned pro looking at them. Congrats.
Benny
Thank you Benny for the kind words!!
Your hard work really paid off and you were rewarded with one heavenly panettone. The crumb looks so rich yet so shreddy, feathery and light!
Thank you so much for the kind words!
Your panettone looks good. Especially given you didn't have access to a pH meter.
I've recently been on a similar journey - started well, but quickly went downhill (LM problems).
When I realised I was likely to still be doing trial bakes on Christmas Day I pulled the plug; but I will regroup and have another go in a month or two.
Lance
Thank you Lance for the kind words. I guess most of the problems that occur during the process can be traced back to the LM. Let us know how it goes when you give it another go, I hope it goes very well!
For a first attempt it looks really great, very well done Peter!
The consistency of the dough and crumb look spot on to me, I can see signs of low acidity, you've done well to keep that in check. As we discussed, three refreshes done in the day prior to the usual 3 on the day is a sound approach and I'm glad it worked out well for you!
Your post here is a good template for others to follow.
Regarding the use of melted butter, Massari advises the same, it is done this way so the fruit can mixed in without working the dough any further, the butter lubricates the gluten mesh and allows it to stretch far without breaking.
Cheers,
Michael
Thank you so much Michael. The addition of the melted butter makes complete sense now! It raises another question: I guess that in that case we don't need to wait until the melted butter is fully incorporated but instead we can add the fruits immediately after adding the butter, right?
While I have you here, I thought I would ask: when you mention the three refreshments the day prior to making the first dough, which procedure do you think is better? Giving the LM three actual refreshments at 28 C four hours apart followed by a fourth maintenance feeding at 18 C for 12 hours (this is what I did), or give it two refreshments at 28 C four hours apart followed by a third maintenance feeding at 18 C for 16 hours?
Since you have made a number of panettoni over the years and have acquired great expertise, I wonder if you have strategies to reduce mixing times. Although I didn't run into problems, my mixing times were way too long. For the first dough I did what you have suggested in a different post on TFL, fully dissolving the sugar in the water before starting to mix, which worked very well but the mixing time was still very long. I have been thinking of what would happen if I mixed together the yolks with the butter very well with a fork in a separate bowl for the first dough, and mixed the sugar, yolks, and butter together similarly for the second dough? Do you think it would work? By doing that, I might be able to reduce the mixing times.
Sorry for the many questions!
Peter
You are welcome Peter.
Sure, that's the intention to help incorporate the fruits with the melted butter.
Lots of good questions there, but many are conditional and relative to your situation and so ultimately there are some things you will have to figure out for yourself.
I'm not sure what qualifies as better here. I think the procedure you applied makes sense, it's what Massari does. But perhaps the alternative might work better for you with your LM... Only you can make that determination.
With practice and repetition you will likely work out how to reduce those mixing times, I know that has been the case for me. It takes time to learn how your mixer mixes and to better understand when the dough is ready to take on more ingredients or not. I can recall in the early days that much time was taken up by being unsure and overly cautious, nowadays I add most ingredients fairly promptly when mixing the second dough, the sugar goes in pretty much all in one go! Certainly making a separate emulsion could work, some maestros take that approach. If I can add anything, it might be worth considering if you can mixer at a higher speed...
Keep at it!
Michael
Thank you Michael. I think I will probably stick to the methods I used regarding LM management and mixing because they seemed to work well. Maybe with more time and experience, I can eventually reduce the mixing time while keeping the recommended sequence of adding things in the mixer. As for mixing at higher speed, I prefer to keep my KitchenAid at first and second speeds, I used the third speed only briefly a couple of times when I thought the panettone dough was loose enough for the mixer to handle it. According the the user's manual, I should not go above second speed when mixing dough. With ciabatta it is OK to go above but panettone dough is stiffer so I should be more careful.
Best,
Peter
I found another method of mixing, specifically for use with a planetary mixer. I only tried it with the secondo, but it worked well.
https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=70344667
I know it is for Colomba, but the principle is the same for Panettone.
Lance
Thank you Lance for sharing this. It looks interesting. It also suggests creating an emulsion which we discussed above. I may give it a try next time I make panettone, whenever that may be. I probably won't wait till next Christmas.
That is really beautiful. Well done!
Thank you so much for your kind comment!
Peter, what size molds did you use? I’m not sure the size of mold for which weight of dough and is that the dough with or without the inclusions?
Michael, is there a standard weight of dough per volume of the mold?
Benny
Hi Benny,
The mold size I have is 17 cm x 13 cm (6 5/8'' X 4 ¼''), it is a good size for the recipe in my post, including inclusions. It is the "P170" size, whatever that means. I got them on Ebay, here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/331992072313?var=541036128331
For mold size and dough weight, this calculator is very helpful: https://www.lievitonaturale.org/calcolo_impasto_pirottino.php
It is in Italian but you can translate the site easily in Chrome.
Best,
Peter
Hi Peter that is very helpful, does that dough weight include the inclusions?
Thanks
Benny
Hi Benny, I think it does and that's how I calculated mine, including the inclusions, and it worked well.
Thanks again Peter, and once again, amazing bake!
Happy New Year
Benny
Thanks Benny, Happy New Year to you as well!
Hi Benny,
There are standard expected weights of the final product, commonly 500g, 750g and 1kg and you can find moulds that are made for those weights. There are basso (short) and alto (tall) type moulds but the exact volumes varies between manufacturer. If however the retailer doesn't specify the intended mould size you can gauge it by comparing to other examples. The following my help but also have a look at bakerybits.co.uk for examples.
For an unglazed (traditional Milanese) panettone the dough weight will be scaled at up to +10% maximum. e.g. 500g mould = 550g dough weight / 1kg mould = 1100g dough weight. If glazed deduct around 50g from the previous or just scale to the mould size e.g. 500g dough for 500g mould.
Thanks again Michael.
Happy New Year to you and your loved ones.
Benny
Thanks Benny.
Happy New year to you and to yours too.
Michael
Very nice result! And I agree with the other posters' comments.
One thing I noticed that might help: I find that baking at a slightly earlier moment gives better oven spring. Your dough was pretty far up the sides before baking.
Cheers, Sue
Thank you for the suggestion, Sue. I think you are right. My panettoni spread sideways as well, not only upward, which shows that I proofed them for too long. Next time I will bake them a little sooner.
Best,
Peter
Your panettone looks wonderful, Peter. I hope that feeling of exhaustion is long gone by now, replaced by something more like enjoyment and satisfaction. Your detailed write-up is also amazing (not to mention generous). I'm sure it will be referenced for years to come by other aspiring panettone-makers. Congratulations!
Thanks so much for your kind comments. The exhaustion is gone. The process itself is demanding but doable. I got exhausted mainly because I tend to get overexcited when I try something new, and I was so excited about this whole project that I had a hard time sleeping at night. But now it's all over and I am very happy with the results!
Best,
Peter
This method is exactly what i've been looking for! Creating and maintaining a LM seems like a project I'd love to experiment with in the future, but it does seem untenable for me right now as an occasional amateur baker.
I'm very new to this, would you mind sharing some more details/resources about your conversion to a PM and the dry feeding method? Assuming that the 'dry method' means that for refreshments you score it with an 'X' on top then keep it in an uncovered glass jar? For maintenance feeds apart from the temp decrease, do you roll up the PM?
Also how much starter do you typically discard during refreshments, assuming it's just the dry outer layer?
I've found some resources online about maintaining a LM via the bound method and water method, but haven't found too much info on the dry method!
There are people on TFL with more expertise than me, but this is what I can tell.
First off, you should have a really active and strong starter that can triple its size in about 4 hours at 28 C. If it is not that strong yet, strengthen it by keeping it at room temperature and start feeding it at 1:1 (flour:starter), wait till it peaks, then feed again. Once you have a very active starter, adjust the hydration so you have a starter at around 45% hydration. I would not do this with the entire amount of starter you have, but instead take a piece of your starter and that is going to be the piece you will transform into LM.
If you have a strong starter, I think you can create a LM in a few days, maybe a week. Once the hydration is adjusted, try to give it at least one warm refreshment a day at the ratio of 1:1, at 28 C. Check if it can triple in 3-4 hours, that's your goal.
LM has a 24-hour feeding cycle. So, if you can give it one warm refreshment a day that lasts 4 hours, you have 20 hours left. During those 20 hours you will keep your LM at 18 C after feeding it again after the warm refreshment (once it is tripled after 4 hours at 28 C, it is considered to be mature, therefore it must be fed again to avoid over maturation). If your schedule allows you to do two warm refreshments a day, even better. Then, the two refreshments will take up 8 hours in total, so you will have 16 hours left, during which you will keep your LM at 18 C after feeding it.
LM thrives at 28 C, that's the best temperature for it, that's why you should aim for giving it at least one warm refreshment at 28 C a day. Maintenance feedings occur at around 18 C and typically last 12-20 hours, depending on how many warm refreshments you can do daily. The more refreshments you can do, the less time your LM will spend at 18 C because again, it is on a 24-hour cycle.
Regarding the dry method, the binding method and the water method are probably better, that's the reason why panettone masters apply them. I picked the dry method only for its simplicity. I simply kept the LM in a glass jar, loosely covered, during refreshments and maintenance periods. Sometimes I would roll it up, sometimes I would not, depending on how much time I had. Using this simple method can produce more acidity, so you should smell and even taste your LM frequently. If it is too acidic, you can perform a bagnetto before the first refreshment of the day. There are other remedies for a LM too strong and acidic, like giving it a single refreshment at 1:2 (LM:flour). I never had to do that, though.
The day before making the primo impasto, try to do three refreshments followed by a maintenance feeding, as described in my post.
There is so much more, but I hope this helps. If you want to learn more, check Michael Wilson's posts and comments on TFL, that's where I have learned everything from.
Peter
Appreciate the detailed response! I have indeed been checking out Michael's posts which have been extremely helpful, as well as a ton of other resources online.
Putting all the information together for something that's realistic for me is where I've been struggling, your method thus far has been the closest to what seems doable for me, so appreciate the advice!
You are welcome. One more thing that worked for me is to feed just a small amount of LM every time to reduce discards as much as possible. LM maintenance can be very wasteful due to the frequent feedings, but if you keep it small and build it up to the desired amount on the day of making the primo impasto, you can save a lot of flour. I was feeding only 20 grams of LM with 20 g of flour, and built it up during the free refreshments before the making of the primo impasto. I didn't have a lot of discard!
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Excellent resource here and exactly what I was looking for. Bookmarking for this year.
Thank you very much. I am glad you have found it useful.