Boy's First Starter
5Dec07 - Boy's first blog, too.
Well, it's few weeks before Christmas. Discovering this forum has advanced my desire to improve my bread making skills so I've decided to begin my first sourdough starter. All the reading I've done here suggests that I should be ready to crank out a loaf just before Christmas - assuming a myriad of factors stay neatly grouped together and headed in the desired direction. So, here it goes...my first blog. I doubt I'll have anything informative to pass along so my real hope is to document my progress for future reference - beats trying to hold a pencil with floury fingers.
I'm using a recipe from Amy Scherber. I made my first sponge last week which produced six amazing rustic Italian batards. A far cry from what I had been producing in terms of crumb. Given that good fortune, I'm sticking with Amy for now. Two ounces of rye flour from Henry's Market here in San Diego added to four ounces of 77 degree water from my reverse osmosis filter is in a three cup plastic ziploc container covered and sitting on my countertop (need to check those weights - going from memory the next day). Off to bed.
Comments
6Dec07
Checked in on the room temperature rye starter and, as expected, no sign of activity. The rye sponge for the crusty Italian bread I'll be making for dinner tomorrow, in contrast, was going nuts after six hours. Can't wait to slap some butter on that as it comes out of the oven!
I'll give the sourdough starter its first feeding tomorrow morning (T+36 hrs) or evening (T+48 hrs), depending on whether or not I see life early in the day.
Crossing my fingers!
-Kurt
7Dec07
This morning, the rye starter was bubbling a bit but I was busy making a pie and some ice cream for a dinner tonight so I fed it early in the afternoon. It had increased in volume by roughly fifty percent before I stirred it up and added four ounces of RO water and two ounces of rye flour. I stirred the heck out of it for a few minutes and then transferred it to a five cup Gladware container. The lid simply rested atop, not sealed. Within a few hours, the level had again risen - this time by perhaps thirty-three percent. Smells sour (putting it politely).
Tomorrow, Amy calls for a fifty/fifty split with half continuing on with the rye flour and the other half becoming a white starter.
So far, so good. I hope the trend continues.
By the way, the Italian loaves turned out great tonight. Didn't get quite the rise/spring as I did last week (using a new sponge from the same recipe) but I did have to re-refridgerate the dough again this morning. I guess if I was warming up nicely and got tossed, unwanted, back in the cooler, I'd be less than enthusiastic the next time I came out, too.
-Kurt
The rye starter more than doubled overnight and no collapse. It looked very good - very homogeneous and bubbly this morning (last feeding was nineteen hours prior). No separation or hooch pools. However, it smells..well, like dog breath. Is that sour? To me, it just smells bad. Press on.
I equally divided the twelve ounce mixture into two five cup Gladware containers. To one, I added three ounces of RO water (77 degrees) and three ounces of rye flour. To the other, I added the same amount of water and organic AP flour. Stirred 'em wildly and loosely covered 'em. Two hours later, they are on the move.
I'll check in on them this evening. It's supposed to take one more feeding before the starters double in eight hours. If not, keep six ounces and feed every twelve hours. After they double in eight hours, its either off to a recipe or the refrigerator. Once in the refrigerator, they are to be fed bi-weekly or weekly. When ready to make a sourdough loaf, remove one of the starters from the cooler, feed and, if they double in eight hours, use some amount at that time. I've read on this site about a 'golden rule' whereby a starter should quadruple in eight hours, not double and the feeding ratio is much higher. Amy's is 6:3:3. Others here indicate that 1:4:4 is the ultimate goal.
We shall see.
-Kurt
10Dec07
I fed the beasts again on Saturday night and early Sunday afternoon. Prior to both feedings there was much activity. Since the last feeding, very, very little. The temperature in the kitchen has dropped to sixty eight degrees (less in the morning) due to temps in the fifties outside. Yup, it's not always a postcard in San Diego. I compansated by putting the starters in the oven with a Pyrex of four cups of hot water. That kept the temperature in the oven at about seventy nine degrees. Didn't seem to matter much.
Anyway, before I went to bed last night, I put a heating pad on the countertop and placed a plastic cutting board atop it upon which rest the starters in their Gladware containers, not tightly sealed. The temp of the board was seventy eight degree and the temp of the starters was seventy seven degrees. Sounds perfect. I'll feed again this afternoon and daily for a few days (six ounces of starter plus 3/3 flour/water) under the advice that it may take a while.
One good sign is that starters no longer smell like dog breath. They are smelling more sour and like the flour from which they are made. I think that's better.
-Kurt
It's very normal for it to take a rest at day 3 or 4. In another day or two it will come back. The initial bubbling is more the bacteria growing. Once the mixture ferments and becomes more acidic the yeast will start to grow. It just takes a bit more time. You are right on track!
11Dec07
SourdoLady, thank you for the insight and encouragement.
The temperature atop the cutting board (resting on the heating pad) was 82 degrees yesterday afternoon. I folded up some kitchen towels and placed them between the board and the containers in the hope of dissipating more heat. I may end up having to cycle the heating pad using my electronics background to make a thermostatically controlled relay to do the work for me.
This morning, things are looking a bit lively. The white starter has plenty of surface bubbles and has risen about 33% in the past twelve hours. The rye starter is stiffer, although it uses the same ratios, and has a reduced bubble count and rise height. Both are smelling much better and no longer scare the children.
I'll continue the daily feedings to the weekend (today is Tuesday) and, if the starters do not double within eight hours of feeding, I'll switch to twice-daily feedings.
-Kurt
Kurt, don't expect the rye starter to rise as much as a white flour starter. Rye does not have much gluten so it will never rise very much. I have never kept a rye starter so I can't tell you too much about what to expect. Someone else may chime in who has a rye starter. Your starters (well, at least the white one) will rise more if you keep it on the thicker side--more flour than water.
12Dec07
Fed last night and this morning, too. So much for waiting until the weekend to begin twelve hour feedings. Too much evidence from others here on the TFL doing that.
Both starters had risen a bit and had many bubbles but nothing near doubling in twelve hours. Adding a folded kitchen towel on top of the cutting board on top of the heating pad seems to be working - the internal temperature of the starters is about seventy five degrees while the kitchen temperature ranges between the low to high sixties.
Both starters continue to improve in smell. The rye has a rugged texture and smells a bit sour but very pleasant. The white smells a bit like glue and resembles glue, too. No separation of water is occuring nor are they rising overnight and slipping back down before I see them in the morning. They are just taking their time, I hope.
[EDIT] Eight hours after this morning's feeding and both starters have about doubled. The rye smells great, kind of like beer. The white still smells like a new shoe. Neither has a pronounced sour taste. Perhaps that will come in the days ahead. Pondering whether to put in the refrigerator following this evening's feeding or keep it out on the counter for twice-daily feedings. If it goes in the fridge, it will be fed twice per week.
-Kurt
Don't put them in the fridge yet. They need to mature some more. Keep them out for another week and keep on with the morning/evening feedings. You can reduce the quantity of the starter so that you aren't wasting a lot of flour. When you are ready to try baking with it you can increase the quantity by giving it a larger feeding so you have what is needed for your recipe. Feed it enough flour so that it is fairly thick, and not runny. You can always change the hydration level to suit your recipe later on.
I DID put them in the fridge last night four hours after the second feeding. They had jumped up about 50% in that four hours. I'll call the wife and ask her to yank 'em. Thanks SourdoLady. I did taste them again and, while they smell pretty good, there is very little 'sour' taste. I'll cut back the amount of starter I use from six ounces to three ounces and reduce the feed flour and water from three ounces to one and a half - I have been burning through that $$$ flour. Hmmm. Instead, perhaps I can stick with what I've been doing and use the discard for English muffins. My wife has been on my to make them. I'll have to try it out tonight (assuming six ounces of discard will be enough for a basic muffin recipe). -Kurt
Oh, Kurt, you are not feeding a high enough ratio to keep your starters healthy now that they are actively growing. At the bare minimum you should be feeding them twice as much flour as there is old starter. For example, 1 ounce starter: 2 ounces flour. One ounce is plenty to keep in maintenance mode until you are ready to build the quantity for a recipe.
Yes, use your discards in whatever you like. You can even use commercial pancake mix and add starter (1/2 cup to 1 cup, depending on how much batter you make) with no other alterations. Add 1/2 cup to any quick bread recipe. I even make dog biscuits with mine.
You can also bake with your starter already, since it is doubling in good time. The flavor won't be as good as it will after it gets some age on it, but it will still be as good or better than any commercial yeast dough.
I'll take your advice, SourdoLady. Thank you. I have been following the instructions from Amy Scherber but, as I read more and more, your words seem to echo the prevailing wisdom in terms of ratios.
That leaves me with a question: If I maintain five ounces (1:2:2) of starter at any given time, how do I go about increasing to an amount called for in a recipe? My guess is that I maintain the same ratio at feeding time but save more starter until I get what I need. For example, if I require sixteen ounces of starter, I would have a formula of x + 2x + 2x = 16 and solve for x (x = 16/5 = 3.2 ounces). Therefore, I keep 3.2 ounces of old starter and add 6.4 ounces of flour and water, let proof until double and then use immediately (or cool)? And, if I need more than twenty five ounces, I would have to build up over two (or more) feedings?
Just trying to get the process down so I am able to plan accordingly - I'm used to making bread in a few hours, not a few days.
-Kurt
13Dec07
Patience and persistance are the main ingredients for beginning a starter, that's for sure.
At the recommendation of SourdoLady, I removed the two starters from the fridge this morning after putting them in for the first time last night. They doubled last night so I thought I was done with the daily effort but it makes sense that the little buggers need to mature. They more than doubled today. I just fed them again but reduced the overall quantity to 1:2:2 ounces (old starter:new flour:new water) and used 110g of the rye starter discard for a batch of English muffins, a recipe from this site. All three are fermenting happily away. Well, maybe not happily - that's a bit anthropomophic.
I also have a batch of olive bread in the works from the sponge I made a few days ago.
-Kurt
There is more than one way to do it, but I generally do two feedings if I want to increase the amount by a substantial portion. I feed once and then when the starter is really bubbly (3 or 4 hours) I feed it again. You could feed it a large amount all at once, but I wouldn't recommend it with a new starter. It might be overwhelmed with too much food all at once. The amounts you feed don't have to be precise. Bill Wraith has done a lot of experimenting with feeding ratios. I generally prefer not to get too technical (too complicated for my brain!) I think Bill recommends a 1:4:4 ratio for feedings.
Thanks SourdoLady.
I did the first 1:2:2 last night and it tripled when I awoke this morning (about twelve hours post feeding). Looks like they are well on their way.
The English muffins turned out more like dinner rolls - soft and moist crumb. Delicious all the same. I'll bet when they cool completely, are split and toasted, they'd be more traditional. I rolled the dough to 3/4", made the cut-outs and let them proof for forty-five minutes as the directions called out. Turns out I should have rolled them much thinner - they rose up to about one and a half to two inches on the stove top. Gotta love that starter!!! I have had similar issues rolling pita dough too thick and no pocket results. Thin is in (till it ain't). What a fabulous use for discard! I can't believe I'm not using any commercial yeast.
The olive bread is shaped and proofing. Can't wait for dinner.
-Kurt
Hey, you are doing great! Isn't sourdough a lot of fun? Take pictures and post them when you can. Sounds like you have some robust starters, too.
It is pretty cool, SourdoLady. Thanks for your help (and your posts from the past).
Here are some photos. First, the 'discard' bagels:
And here are the two starters brewing away and looking to be fed:
-Kurt
Don't know why I had bagels on the brain there.
-Kurt
I think I upset my white starter. After feasting on organic AP flour (all my flour is unbleached), I ran out and switched to store brand AP. I has gone from doubling in four hours to not-even-doubling all day. Ran out and got more OAP. I'm a slave to these buggers!
-Kurt
Don't worry, Kurt, it will bounce back. Was the cheap flour bleached? Bleached flour is pretty much crap, in my opinion. I use store brand unbleached flour sometimes and have no problems with it. Bread flour will give you more volume, but if you are just feeding for maintenance unbleached AP is fine.
Hey there, SDLady. Yes, all my flours are unbleached. That starter went from a nice risen and stringy 'mess' to a flat, white pool of goo. Perhaps starters take on the charcteristics of their owners for I, too, am a creature of habit/routine. I know I can get a little testy if my cereal is changed under me :-).
-Kurt
It took a few days, more OAP flour and a new container before the white starter re-awoke. It now more than quadruples in tweleve hours. Time for more English muffins. At 336g of flour and 276g of milk (82% hydration), that muffin dough is a mess to work with :-o. Even with wet hands, I get 'club hand'. The flip side is that they sure rocket out of the pan when cooked.
While the white starter really has no sour taste to it, the rye starter is noticeably sour. I'll take my first stab at sourdough this weekend. Wish me luck!
-Kurt
That's great! I'll be anxious to hear how your first loaves of bread turn out. Which starter are you using first? The rye will always be more sour than the white. Your English muffins look great, and they really did puff up nicely!
Good luck with the bread. What kind are you making?
SourdoLady, I'll try the more sour of the two. I've made English muffins with both and don't notice a differece. As for a sourdough recipe, I'm wide open. There's one on Susan's wildyeastblog.com that was considering, Norwich Sourdough. I'll thumb through Amy Scherber's book and see if I like hers and if it fits well with the amount of starter I have on hand (I know Susan's will require reduction by 1/3 in order to preserve some original starter). I still don't have a feel for how much starter is required for a given quantity of dough and desired rise time.
Man, that white starter is going CRAZY (>4x each 12 hours). As a result, we're rolling in muffins :-O.
-Kurt
Well, the day finally came. I used some of my starters (both of 'em) to make my first sourdough loaf. I halved the Norwhich/Vermont Sourdough recipe from WildYeastBlog.com/Hamelman and it turned out GREAT!
Here's a baguette:
Here's the crumb:
The taste is mildly sour but noticeable. I used half the recipe for pizza dough - not such a good thing. Sour + Italian herbs don't fit my pallet. I'll stick with my tried-n-true herb infused, parmesian dough recipe for pizza.
Wow! So cool to see that thing jump off the stone with bugs I grew myself!
-Kurt
Your bread looks great!! Congrats on such lovely loaves and especially for your first ones. Keep up the good baking--you're off to a great start!
Thanks for the compliments.
For Christmas, I received a 1# brotform. Put it into service today. This is the same recipe I used for the first loaf a few days ago (Hamelman Vermont SD). Made a baguette and a boule (using the brotform - very cool!). Again, my happy little fungi got very excited by the hot stone and steam. I LOVE those little guys!!
After nearly three weeks of twice-daily feedings, I've decided to put the starters in the cooler and feed them once or twice a week.
Thanks TFL for breaking down the sourdough barrier.
-Kurt
Kurt, those loaves are looking fantastic! You are moving up the ranks very nicely. Your starter should be just fine in the fridge now. Have you noticed that it keeps improving in flavor?
Hi SourdoughLady. Thanks again for the compliment and insight. Week three was really their time to 'bloom'. Even the white starter smells and tastes sour. The rye starter smells just like the wine I ferment in the garage during the winter.
It is so cool that I don't need to use that 2# bag of commercial yeast to make bread (or E-muffins or bagels) anymore!!!!
I received PR's BBA for Christmas and see that his recipes require commercial yeast. While I'll try many of them, of course, I guess I'll have to experiment by using my starters instead. I suppose there will be an increase in fermentation times. Anyway, this first recipe is great, just a bit sour, and will be weekly staple!
-Kurt
Kurt,
Those are lovely loaves, with some really spiffy slashing, especially on the boule! Wish mine would look half as nice!
Good going!
edh
for your compliments. I borrowed the slashing scheme from someone here at TFL.
That boule was fed into the panini grill we got for Christmas. It was delicious but slicing into that first boule was hard to do. Glad I snapped a pic!
Happy New Year!!
-Kurt