Josh's Super Sour SFSD
I made this loaf using Josh's process which he outlined in my previous blog post on San Francisco style sourdough. (You will need to scroll down to about the halfway mark to view the post).
Levain Build
- 20g refrigerated starter @100% hydration
- 100g water
- 15g light rye flour
- 85g all purpose
Allow to mature for 12 hours.
* Josh uses 60% levain in the build, 100% water and 100% flour of which 5% is rye. I can't use 60% starter in my levain build as it would ripen in three hours with our temperatures over here. If you plan on following this recipe, you would need to adjust the amount of starter in the levain build so that it matures in 12 hours. 20% starter works out perfectly for me at temperatures of 27C.
Main dough
- 300g water
- 500g bread flour @ 11.4% protein
- 11g salt
Refrigerate the dough immediately. Josh divides into pieces that aren't super thick and retards in lightly greased tubs. He retards at 40F.
Retard for 22 hours.
Remove dough and allow to come back to room temperature (one to two hours). Now shape and Josh advises to proof for 3 -5 hours but once again that was not possible for me to do because it would have been overproofed with our warm temperatures over here. I let it proof for 1 and a half hours. It was just starting to show signs of activity.
Retard for another 20 hours. I retarded for a full 24 just because I only got home late Sunday afternoon.
Bake loaves with steam for 15 minutes vented for 20+(200 deg internal). Josh didn't mention the oven temperature but he did say:
don't forget to bake it dark. Deep red and a hint of black. Yum.
Taste
This made for some of the tastiest all-white sourdough I have ever eaten. It really was worth the wait and despite taking almost 3 days to make it was quite effortless. There wasn't much to do except wait. Fortunately I have been extremely busy lately and had no time to camp outside the refrigerator waiting anxiously.
The crust is very chewy on the day after the bake. It had the kind of flavour in it that I would normally only associate with a loaf that had some whole grain in it. The crumb was light but consistent with the 11.4% protein flour that I used.
My only quibble is that it only had the tiniest hint of sour. I don't think this is a problem with the recipe, but rather with my flour. I know if I used this process with only 15% wholegrain, I would get a very pronounced sour flavour. It just seems very difficult for me to get a really sour all-white loaf with the flour I use. I know all flours are not created equally and could it be that my flour is lacking in something that will let it get really sour? The only time I have got a really sour all-white sourdough with this flour was when I added sugar eggs and butter. I could smell the sour while it was baking in the oven. Recently, I have been experimenting with adding maltose at a rate of 5% and getting very good results with that, too. Not as sharp a sour as I got with sucrose but a very mellow sour which lingers in the mouth long after it has been swallowed.
And a crumb shot.
So now I still not finished with this one, yet. It seems I still have some experimenting to do. If could marry the crust that I got with this to the sour I was getting with my previous recipe and then dial in a little more acetic acid flavour, I would be a happy camper and would file this recipe in the tried and tested tray. For the time being, it is back to the drawing board. Happily, though.:)
Syd
Comments
Looks like you got some real good results. Nice job. Your crumb and crust look real nice.
Ian
Thanks Ian. I have had enough practice on this loaf. I have lost count now, but it must be somewhere in the high teens. The longer the retard, the bigger the blisters, or so it seems. :)
Best,
Syd
The blisters on the crust are awesome. Nicely done.
-Floyd
Thanks Floyd. Yes, the blisters are there, the crust colour is good, now I just want a little more sour. I have never tasted San Francisco Sourdough so I don't really know what to aim for, but I am sure (from what others describe) it is sourer than what I have been producing. Just wish I could taste some so that I knew what to shoot for.
Best,
Syd
Syd! Spectacular blisters is all one can say. Very nice indeed.
Thanks dabrownman! Yes, it seems that the longer the retard (and perhaps the bulk ferment retard helps here, too) the larger the size of the blisters. With a shorter process I get smaller, more numerous blisters. Not sure why, though. Thanks for your comments. :)
Syd
Syd,
What an outstanding looking loaf!
Now you have 2 breads on your list that take 3 days to complete. Your Pain de Mie and now it's opposite. You can really be a bread baking 'slacker' now....just make the yeasties and beasites do all of the work for you.
Thanks for the post.
Take Care,
Janet
Thanks Janet. My loaves have to fit into my schedule and never the other way around (except of course if I am on holiday). What I bake is almost always dictated by the amount of time available and at what times I can be at home (to fold, shape, etc). Just wish I had a month off to experiment and bake to my heart's desire. Thanks for commenting.
Syd
Hi Syd,
When my kids were really young I used to bake bread about 1x a month because it was so time consuming. In those days I didn't know about mixers for kneading bread, how to use wild yeast for leavens in my doughs, S&F or using the refrigerator to slow things down....Needless to say I was at the mercy of the dough. As my kids got older I totally didn't have time to spend tending to dough so I pretty much stopped baking bread.
A couple of years ago someone mentioned mixers for kneading and my interest in bread baking got rekindled.....I was off and running and one of the first things I learned was how to use the refrigerator for retarding dough and since that day I have been in control of the doughs that share my kitchen with me :-) Well, not complete control but a lot more than I used to have....
So I completely understand and appreciate how you fit baking into your schedule.
Take Care,
Janet
Yes, a mixer would help but, to be honest, it is not that I can't afford one (although it would hurt) it is more because I just don't have anywhere to keep it. You wouldn't believe how tiny our kitchen is (and the rest of the house for that matter). Your closet is probably bigger than my kitchen and I am not joking, either. One day I will start a thread about my tiny kitchen. :)
Syd
Syd, That looks fantastic. Your description "some of the tastiest all-white sourdough I have ever eaten" is pretty compelling. I am now working on the version you posted on earlier. Can't keep up with you. -Varda
Well I can't keep up with you either, especially when you go baking all these fancy breads with even fancier ingredients, half of which have never even been heard of in my neck of the woods.
The flavour is in the crust of this one, but you have to give it a bold bake as Josh suggests. It was sourer today, but I would still only classify it as very mild. Thanks for your comments.:)
Syd
David
Thanks David! Josh's process is definitely worth a try. You will probably get better results in terms of getting a more sour loaf, especially with your flour mix. Thanks for commenting.
Syd
Hi Syd,
This crust on your bread is amazing - such color, those blisters!, and the lovely scoring :^)
I am reminded of Yippee's beautifully-blistered-boule, and cold fermentation employed, as you have done here.
The dark background in your photo makes your loaf really 'jump out' (it almost looks 3D!); I thought the same thing
when I saw your other stunning loaf, currently on the front page!
:^) breadsong
Thanks breadsong! Well I have been working on this one long enough now! I have one or two more things I want to try but I am pretty satisfied with it now. I think I might even have a handle on the too mild a sour problem but just need one or two more shots at it to confirm.
The dark background is our coffee table at home. I like to photograph my bread there because it provides a nice contrast and there is nothing to distract from the loaf itself. I had forgotten about Yippee's post but now I remember the pictures since I had a look again. They look stunning.
Always nice to hear from you breadsong,
Syd
The do look like near twins on the outside don't they? Just different scoring. You have such a good memory breadsong. Both are beautiful as bread or even art objects.
Hello,
Yes, I do agree, Syd's bread is art! And I can't get over the spectacular colors in the crust for this bread.
Re: memory, it turns out mine is not so good after all; Yippee recently reminded me of those boules in a recent post (photos of this gorgeous loaf here!).
:^) breadsong
or I've got something. I tried Josh's super-retard method. Different numbers than him or you but closer to you. This bread bites back. But whether it tastes as it should (I don't know) I can say it tastes good. Thanks for leading the way.
It's my pleasure Varda and that is a handsome looking loaf you have produced there. Your crumb is very similar to mine. When you say 'it bites back', are your referring to the sour? I find this loaf is sourer on the second day. Freshly baked, the sour flavour is only slightly discernable. I have been experimenting more and have now settled on a recipe I am very satisfied with. I have got very consistent results for the last five or so bakes. My recipe is almost identical to my original one (except that I now add 4% maltose) and I have borrowed the long final proof from Josh. I now final proof in the fridge for 18 -24 hours and get a great russet brown colour with lots of blistering. As soon as I get the time I will do a write up on it. I can see blistering on the top left of your boule but I suspect there is more and it is just not that evident because of the lighting in your photograph.
Best,
Syd
but not super sour which is what Josh said. I used almost same as your formula above - 67% hydration, 20% (vs your 18%) prefermented flour - all white flour - around half 11.7% the other half 12.7%, 100% hydration starter. I did a mix, 24 hour bulk ferment, let warm up for 2 hours, shape and proof for 2 hours, then back in the refrigerator for 23 hours. Then bake right out of the refrigerator. You can see more of the blistering inside the scores. The skin of the loaf was very hard (I practically had to saw it to score with a serrated knife) which may be why it didn't blister that much outside of the score lines. I had it well covered, but I guess not enough. I'm looking forward to taste if it is sourer tomorrow. I tried your original one but it sort of collapsed. Then I tried somewhere in between your first and second posts and that was good but not at all sour. I'm a little wary of the sponge method after my first try pancaked. This one had a nice high rise so maintained its strength over the 2 days in the refrigerator. Maltose is a sugar? What's the theory? I know you are busy. I can wait to find out more until the next post. -Varda
Varda, you asked:
I got the idea from Debra Wink's thread on lactic acid fermentation. Here is the relevant quote.
The maltose syrup I use looks like this. It is made from germinating cereals like barely and it is only half as sweet as fructose and one sixth as sweet as glucose. (Info from Wikipedia). So it is not super sweet. In fact you can't notice it in the bread at all. Not even slightly. I suspect it might contribute to the colour and I am theorising (along with Debra Wink) that it is food for the lactobacilli which is why I am getting a sourer all-white SFSD.
Don't be discouraged from using the sponge method again. The key to using it is to mix your final dough quite a bit before the sponge peaks. If it is particulary warm and the sponge is very active I might use it after 2 hours. If you let it peak, it will be too acid and you will get too much proteolyctic activity and a very sticky dough with a likely collapse.
Best,
Syd
Hi Syd,
Always following along here and am jumping in here to add a comment about maltos - which is simply non diastatic malt powder or also called barley malt flour. KA sells it in 1 lb bags and they also sell diastatic malt.
I have been experimenting with the non diastatic malt powder, which is like the syrup you have pictured but in powdered form and easier to use. What I found out was that if one uses too much in a formula - the result is very thick and hard crusts.
I was experimenting with it because I had read that not only does it add a bit of sweetness to a loaf but that it doesn't compete with the yeast for the water as other sweeteners do.
Eric Kastel, in his book 'Artisan Breads' includes it in almost all of his recipes in varying amounts ranging from .4% up to 1% and maybe a tad bit more but it really is a very small amount. I was pushing the envelope and I found out why not to push unless you want your finished loaves to fill in as footballs :-) (A note to anyone reading his book - he has the description of non diastatic and diastatic malt backwards.)
I think this is also what is put into flours that are sold as 'malted flour' but I don't know since I do not buy flour.
Take Care,
Janet
like I put in bagel water. Thanks for clarifying Janet. -Varda
Yes, Janet it is non-diastatic as the enzymes have been killed off in the heating process when the sugars are extracted. This is a link to a description and photo of syrup very similar to what I use. It is very sticky and light brown in colour. I haven't had the problems with with thick hard crusts that you describe and I have used as much as ten percent just to see what it would do. At ten percent, there was a perceptible sweetness so I backed off and have now settled on just slightly over three percent. I thought the stuff you used in bagel water was quite fluid. The stuff I use is nowhere near pourable but it dissolves in water and, as you said, doesn't compete for water in the dough like sucrose does. (non-hygroscopic is the technical term, I think)
Best,
Syd
Syd,
I can't recall the % I was using but I was using the powdered form in breads I was baking last week and I suddenly had 3 different loaves, both enriched and lean, coming out of my oven with really thick and hard crusts. The only common dominator was the malt powder so I concluded it was the culprit as nothing else had changed in my baking routine. NB: This does not mean it was the culprit but since I have gone back to honey or agave as sweetener I haven't had the problem so I am still thinking it was somehow linked....As with all things in my kitchen I will have to do more experimenting before I really can state it was the TRUE culprit....know what I mean???
Something comes to mind as I type because I was using powdered and you liquid therefore by weight 10% is really going to be very different. 5g of powder is going to be a lot more volume wise than 5g of the liquid which is much heavier. Kinda like comparing powdered sugar to honey in weight. The powdered form is really really light in weight. Guess I need to do some research in how to make adjustments when using the powdered compared to the liquid.
Just found this from a previous post and the answer is from none other that our Stan :-)
considering that most nonorganic patent (white) flours contain some form of malt already, the difference between diastatic and non-diastatic is, in my view, overblown.
as for malt, the liquid form generally contains somewhere around 16% moisture, so if you're using equal amounts by weight, you're getting about 20% more solids when you use dry.
i suppose if you want to be really precise about it, you can reduce the amount of dry malt by 15% or so, or increase the liquid malt by around 20%, but in most recipes the amount of malt is so small anyway, that 15-20% plus or minus will be barely perceptible
Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com
So my assumption was correct and now I know how to adjust in the future.
By the way, I use the powder because it is so much easier to use than the liquid - or at least the liquid we have here in the States. It is very sticky and leaves long trails of itself like gossamer when trying to spoon it out of it's jar. (I think this is exactly like what you have too. Not as easy to use as honey because it is thicker and much stickier in consistency.) Easy to use if dumping into boiling water but when adding to a dough I just find the powdered easier to deal with. Less clean up. BUT beware, if you buy any of the powdered malt, it will get hard as a rock if exposed to ANY moisture so must be stored in a jar with a tight fitting lid.
Thanks for helping me solve my most recent kitchen conundrum :-)
Take Care,
Janet
Janet, that is exactly what I have. So we are talking about the same thing. I spoon it out of the jar (trying very hard not to get any on the lip of the jar because it will cement the lid to it when you put it back on) and dissolve it in boiling water which I allow to cool to room temp before adding to the dough. Stan's conversion makes sense and that explains why you can use a lot more of the liquid form than you can of the dry form. I have never seen the dry form before, but now I will keep a look out for it. Thanks for the tip about not letting it get exposed to any moisture.
And thanks for helping to clarify. :)
All the best,
Syd
Syd,
I am in awe how someone from across the globe can shed light into my kitchen quandaries with such perfect timing in a discussion that isn't really related to malt in the first place!
Let me explain.
Yesterday, before reading this post, I mixed up a batch of Hanseata's (Karin) Malzbrot. Here.
They are baking now and barley malt in the powdered form is used as the sweetener. It is only 1% of the total flour weight and still the crusts on the breads are harder than breads baked without barley malt.
By the way, I do not consider a hard crust a problem. My problem was that I simply did not understand why, all of a sudden, I was getting breads with such thick and hard crusts. Today's bread have a hard crust but because the amount of malt in the recipe was scaled to the powdered form they aren't as thick as the ones on last weeks breads.
My lack of understanding was the problem and now I 'get it'. I have a new way of managing crust outcomes on my loaves. Hard to stay on top when dealing with flour, salt and water :-)
Thanks again!
Janet
Glad your crust quandry has been explained. In the meantime I have learned a lot about the different forms of malt. Had no idea they were so numerous and varied. Do a google search and you will see what I mean. Have you ever pushed the envelope on the diastatic form? I misread Susan's (of Wild Yeast Blog fame) baguette recipe once and added 10%! It resulted in the darkest looking baguettes I have ever baked. Inside the crumb resembled the papery covering of the gooseberry fruit. It was like all the substance had been eaten away in the loaf. Texturally it was very interesting and it had a great flavour, too. I have been meaning to repeat that mistake again.
Best,
Syd
Syd,
I did google searches on malt when I began making my own diastatic malt. I also followed along on the threads where Varda had lengthy discussions on the red malt used in the Borodinsky (sp?) loaf she was working on a while back. Interesting stuff.
Any grain can be malted. I have malted rye, barley and wheat but ended up buying the non diastatic from King Arthur simply for the ease and the price is right.
Hummmm. I will have to give a loaf an overdose of diastatic malt and see what happens. The crust color doesn't surprise me especially after my findings with ndm. The texture is what does surprise me. I had always read that if too much is used you end up with a gummy loaf but yours sounds far from gummy. Maybe another experiment cycle with dm this time......
Janet
I guess I never got an email since you started a new thread and just missed this one completely. Syd the loaf looks great and near identical to my best results and better than my "not the best" results. I guess I left off the list the non diastic malt that is in the dough but I believe at a much lower percentage than yours. I believe its like .5% bakers percentage.
As for the sour I have a few ideas of my own, and Varda's comment may back it up a bit. I think you may be missing some of the sour by using such a small amount of starter in your levain. I feed my seed starter once a day at the same time. I let it sit at room temp for 2-4 hours pending the temperature and let it get active and then retard overnight. Maybe if you built a starter that lived in the fridge and made your levain from a cold seed you could increase the ammount of starter % in your levain. I believe Varda used 2x what you used and certainly semeed like it was sour.
I kid you not our sourdough smells sour coming out of the oven. I do agree the crust is where it is at with this loaf. I also think after day 1 it is much superior toasted than "raw" as the crust crisps up so nicely and the crumb also gets a very nice crispness to it. It is a regulary panini bread at the cafe.
The only other major difference which I don't think plays a big role but it may is I use High Protein Flour. I have tinkered with the same recipe using Malted Bread Flours and different timings and got excellent results. In fact I liked them better than the Sour I passed along.
My favorite variation was using the same recipe yet a changed process.
Mix levain let sit at room temp for 4 hours, retard overnight (I did 18 hours)
Pull from retarder for an hour to take off the chill. autolyse 1 hour
Add salt and mix to strong well developed dough.
bulk ferment (I forget how long this was but I will guess 2 1/2 hours)
shape (proof partially 3-5 hours) retard 24 hours
Bake 15 with steam at 450 (as high as our oven goes or I'd say 460)
440 vented for 23-25 more minutes (202 internal temp)
This variation boasted a good strong sour flavor but also had some sweeter notes and gained 20% more volume than the previous method. This also cut out a whole day of the process. For me this was better, for others not so much. So we kept the old version.
So happy you did try this recipe and liked it and sorry I didn't see this sooner. By now you must have perfected "your" sourdough.
Happy Baking
Josh
PS I've had a few variations of SF Sourdough and I would not consider it super sour. I guess Boudin is the "namesake" and I have tried theirs. Its a nice sourdough but not "super sour" as you might expect.
Josh,
Apologies for not replying sooner but for some reason I wasn't notified of any new posts. In the past, if I clicked on the Track button, I could tell which entries had new posts but that doesn't seem to be working anymore.
I think you are spot on there. I have had precious little time to bake lately and when I have baked, I have opted for tried and tested recipes rather than doing any experimenting. Things have eased up a little recently, so I should be able to give your theory a test in the not too distant future.
I usually only feed my starter once a week (twice or three times if I am baking a lot) and, like you, I also leave it out until I notice some sign of activity before I refrigerate it. About 90 mins if it is all white and about an hour if it has wholewheat in it. My starter is very active in our extremely warm and humid climate.
Your variation where you retard the starter has piqued my interest, too. I am guessing that also would contribute to a more sour flavor. I definitely want to try that. I also like the fact that you got 20% more volume.
Interesting that the Boudin loaf is not that sour. Actually, I am not that surprised to hear that. I would expect an overtly sour loaf to appeal to fewer people. Still, I want to try for myself and see which I prefer. I still haven't succeeded in making a really sour all-white sourdough. Not anything that I can replicate anyway. However, you have given me some fresh ideas and I look forward to trying them out.
Many thanks for your comments,
Syd