June 21, 2007 - 6:52am
Results of Bread Baking This week
Hi Bill,
The results were not great! LOL, I forgot the salt. And my mind is having trouble focusing right now due to health. I flipped the amount of flour and water so had to try to fly by the seat of my pant and increase the flour. I knew I had more than enough of the preferment and more than enough starter was added. I made batards and they eat ok enough but I prefer your true pagnotta recipe.
Will write more later.
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Hi BZ,
Oh yeah, I've forgotten the salt on a few occasions. That's pretty easy to do, especially if you have an autolyse step. The texture difference is interesting. I'm not a big fan of the flavor of bread without at least a little salt, though.
Sounds like the rest of it was quite an adventure, too.
Get well...,
Bill
It's funny about salt really. Like some things there is just no adding it at the end, right? We use unsalted butter or olive oil here and so even sprinkling a bit of kosher salt or sea salt is not "right" tasting lol. Kinda like they say, adding salt in the water of rice,pasta and some veggies means they internalize the sodium instead of having it sit on top of it for flavor!
I did have an autolyse rofl! Still can't remember if I'm using that term right or not cuz the starter was in the flour and water when I let it "sit" for 2 hours...ok ok, I kinda sorta forgot about it! ;) But then I went in and it had already started to rise lol. Of course it did, it had no salt in it! :D
For the first time, I did a true frissaige (sp?). I say that cuz I finally watched the Julia and Danielle show and boy was it illuminating! Next time I'm mad I will definitely think about going to make French bread, I tell you what! Haha! But for the first time I felt like I was really getting a working dough by doing it. I also really liked her method of combining the water into the flour, almost like pasta making. I actually make my pasta on my counter with the well method and it turns out perfect each time. So I'm thinking next bread baking day I will take the bull by the horns and try it out! Will let you know how it goes.
So I did as much of a FF technique per SD-G's video as I could figure out. I musta watched that danged video 25 times and then while trying to do it! Heeeeewwwwwweeeeeee! It wasn't until the third go round that I finally snapped to the fact that each time SD-G slapped the dough down he picked UP from the opposite direction! LOL, I was giggling so hard by that time, I'm sure I looked totally demented! I also think I might have lost close to a pound of dough by then...as it was all "gooed" to my hands! :D
While I was doing this Bill I was saying prayers to you. Did you get any brainwaves telepathically day before yesterday and yesterday? I was thinking that this would be a really awesome trial for you or for someone who really is well-versed at the FF technique. It was actually exhausting for me since I don't have much upper body strength right now but it seems simple enough. The trial would be doing the same recipe at the same time, side by side but one batch would get the FF method to develop the dough and the second batch would get Mike Avery's Stretch and Fold technique. Then it would be cool to see side by side piccys at 1hour intervals then finally get a critique of the final bread by the people eating it.
Mike's method is sooooooooo much easier, less mess, less loss and just an all around easy thing to pick up on but what I don't know from lack of experience is...is that ALL I need to do to develop dough? It just seems too good to be true, you know?
Anyways, I let the dough develop and ferment from about noon until about 10:30pm and then I put it in the fridge overnight cuz it was bedtime for bonzo here. LOL, what I dint expect was the leetle surprise from my leetle friend next morning!!! I open the fridge and there to my wondering eyes did appear but Sir Stinky and friends and eight tiny reindeer spilling over the top of the bowl and I think it was only the action of the plastic wrap that helped it adhear to the bowl and not create a sequel to "The Blob" on the second shelf. The eggs were greatful and wanted to know what took me so long to get there. They had been crying for help since about 2am that morning!
I used the DF/JC video to form the batards. One thing I realized and it might be again that there was no salt to slow it down but I realized that if there is still fool left in your dough for the yeast to eat, it doesn't matter too much that you flatten it out and roll it up, because there will just be new gas to open up the hole structure in the bread. The loaves really had body and surface tension. They rose for the first time ever where as in my other breads (prolly much wetter) there wasn't a whole lotta vertical rise, just more "spreading".
I did make a beautiful couche (floured) out of old dishclothes and they worked great. I also made another discovery. I have a small thin plastic cutting board about 1/4" thick that has a textured surface on it. I don't have a peel and no money in the barn to buy one and I got a brainstorm to try rubbing it with flour so that it became smooth and it worked beautifully! I used it to transfer the batards from the couche to the cornmealed parchment and then an upside down sheet pan helped take them two at a time to the stone and oven. I also used my cast iron pan for steam and it worked great. Nice oven spring. Sucky scoring (can't remember the term for it). And it worked out great.
Thicker crust thanks to the sourdough. Sir Stinksalot is now back in the fridge till next week and we have 5 batards of 12oz each that we are working on. It does rewarm great. The crumb isn't as moist as your pagnotta but it's still good or at least would be with the addition of salt! I will try to remember what I did exactly for a quantity and method for you. LOL, I'm still sooooo sure I'm doing everythign wrong as far as classic sourdough technique goes. So it will be fun having you look at it and tell me where I need to amend the technique.
I do feel like my learning curve is beginning to flatten and is approaching the differential! :D Hahahaha but I also think that is the blythe ignorance of the inexperienced too! I thought about doing the blue cheese bread but was so exhausted by the time that 5th batard was rolled I jsut wanted it to get done. From starter preferment to finish it was a 2 day process. And it took another day and a half to get Stinky back on the path to wholesomeness.
Thanks again Bill!
Hi BZ,
Leaving the salt out may have contributed to the rise in the refrigerator being bigger than you expected, and it may also result in bland flavor. You can sprinkle a little salt on it or use other toppings that may spice it up a bit, if the straight unsalted crumb is not your favorite.
As far as that French Fold technique, I would only use that for about 10-20 seconds, maybe only 3-4 reps, and probably only for a fairly wet dough. If you wet your hands before you start and then again if they start to get any dough stuck on them, you will have very little mess. If you rub a little water on the counter too, very little if any will stick on the counter. It should be done after mixing in the bowl and letting it rest in the bowl for 30-60 minutes, and it will be much easier with salt in the dough. That way, the gluten will form somewhat during the rest for 30-60 minutes, and the salt stiffens the dough and will make it easier to work. If the dough is not very wet, then a little conventional kneading after the rest might work better than the french fold.
The Mike Avery regular folding technique is very effective regardless of what you do to knead, like the slap technique or the FF or squish and roll or whatever, after the initial mix and rest period. As long as the dough is relaxing a lot after the initial rest/kneading and/or between folding sessions, and especially if it's a wet dough, a few folds at 30-60 minutes intervals can do wonders to develop the gluten.
Glad to see you're back in the game there BZ. It sounds like the starter is nice and active.
Bill
because I didn't know this was only during the primary kneading phase! LOL, I thought I was supposed to do this after every rest! DOH! Ok well some of us are more remedial than others :D !
Things are slowly coming together then! The stretch and fold is very convenient for me to do. And if it helps to develop the dough every 30-60 minutes then I will continue to do it. So far I haven't met a dough where that isn't working but granted, I haven't worked with that many doughs! And the driest was a 65% hydration (maybe the test dough or the muffin dough, can't remember).
Good to know the thing about the water. I know that water is def. the trick for the stretch and fold so it sure makes sense!
Will try to make the blue cheese bread with the pagnotta dough either sometime this weekend or maybe early next week. Do you think another dough would be better with it or do you think the pagnotta would be good? I don't want to be a one trick pony or anything...
hey bz, will it make you feel better if i tell you what i did yesterday to my starter experiment? would you like to know what happens to 90g of starter that sits at oh say, 200 degrees for an hour thereabouts? it doubles in pretty short order, boom. then it dies. then you screwdriver it out of its jar and toss it in the compost. bill is under the impression that all this came about because i was distracted by other, more important things...i shall not disabuse him of that notion.
And you know what? ROFL! Misery adores company. Wanna join in a cup of tea? ;)
Oh dear on the 200 degrees! And who on earth could think there could be any other reason for distraction! Right? I mean, if I had a unicorn and lilacs and a mystical looking back yard such as yours, I would forget all sorts of things! Temps, times, starters, salt, clothes... :D
And as for disabusing people lol, even our dear Bill ;). A very dear friend of mine once told me something that has just stuck with me for ages...
"Never apologize! People you know won't believe you and your friends don't need an apology!"
hahahahaha, I have always thought that was a great tenant to live by. I think someone famous said it, for some reason it sounds like a Churchill type of statement! Do you happen to know who to attribute it to?
Anyways, glad to hear from you! Happy baking and dreaming! ;)
No, I hadn't heard that before, it's precious. Almost a whiff of Woody Allen, but let's go with Churchill and retain our stiff upper lips. I'm afraid my starter fiasco can be lain at the feet of nothing but my own absent-mindedness, now that I've actually owned up to the details. The horses were not in the garden, I didn't have a phone call from the queen. "Silly old bear," someone once said--and that was Christopher Robin. Well, I hope soon to see details of a successful blue cheese bread because that sounds like all things wonderful.
now I find I've double posted. Guess I really don't want you to be lonesome, bz...:)
What bus? <wink>
Oh, just look for (more) hoofprints.
:D ;)
You know, conversations for the short term memory challenged are always sooo much fun! :D ;)
bluezebra---in my world, gardens are something that happen to other people.
:D
BlueZebra, I went to my handy dandy book of quotations and the only thing that came close was George Bernard Shaw who said "I never apologize" - and it does sound rather like him, so maybe that is where it came from, A
Ok so let's say it came from GBS! That'll work! Thanks for doing that. I love stuff like that.
I've looked everywhere and I can't find it. Ever since I got a new bookcase and "organized" everything I can't find anything. I always knew the resting place of every book I own...not now.
Browndog....ever wonder what happened to the unicorn? (Except for yours, of course) You might want to read NOT WANTED ON THE ARK. Weird but wonderful. weavershouse
hard is cuz I butchered it! I have only heard it as said by my friend and as such, lol, my memory is very suspect! I did a search on google and only found one entry. It's quite different than how I said it and it's attributed to Henry Ford II, but I can't find any confirmation. Maybe you have it? I do know that Henry Ford II said, "Never complain. Never explain." He filched this from Benjamin Disraeli, English Primeminister who said, "Never complain. Never Explain."
This saying seems to be very popular. I saw many people saying some form of it on google but I can't seem to attribute it. I first heard it from my friend in Denver during the mid-80's.
The quote is:
"Never apologize. Your friends don't need it and your enemies will only use it against you."
TIA!
you've given me my summer reading, I just ordered it off Amazon. And I'll bet your book of quotations is cooling its heels with your Baba A Louis bread book...wherever they are...and a very brief aside, before this turns into tfl off-topic book club--have you ever read Good Omens by Terry Pratchett? Now that's to die for.