Some Weekend Home Bread Baking and the College "Equality and Diversity Competition" Entry from a student Bakery Group.

 Hi Breadsong,

I thought you might find some of the text below of interest.   I've edited it a bit, as it comes from personal mail with another TFL member.   Please make allowances for this context.

I liked the video on You Tube, thanks for adding the link.

Text below:

Best wishes

Andy

E-mail 1

I don't tend to use the term "seed" myself, but I am familiar with what you are trying to get to understand.

So, we are talking about the amount of flour in what I think of as "stock" sourdough, held in the chiller, and used to elaborate the culture to be used to leaven the final dough/paste?

5% is really no problem, given a good feeding regime and an established and active sour culture.   Jeffrey Hamelman is particularly expert in this, and I would refer you to his section on "Detmolder" for further reading and understanding here.

Let me try and illustrate this with how we made our Russian Rye "Rossisky" when I worked at Village Bakery back in the 1990s. 

ROSSISKY 

Percentage figures are shown in the middle column, but the recipe is of most interest.

The stock/seed amounted to nothing more than the scrapings inside the tub which contained the sourdough.   We held at least 10 of these containers fully stocked at any one time! [That's half a tonne]

The newly refreshed tub of sour had a combined temperature of 30°C, and was left to ferment through for 16 hours.   So, 900g of flour in the seed was sufficient to inoculate 20kg of flour in the elaborated culture.   That is 0.9kg/20.9kg x 100 = 4.3%   Because we had a constant refreshment regime combined with a proper fermentation system, there were rarely any problems.   When problems arose, it was either due to excess production pressure, or, poor quality flour [that's a side issue here]

From there, we made up the final paste 16 hours later with the addition of 40kg more fresh flour, but with a tiny portion held back for the next refreshment.   So, approximately, 900g of flour produced a final sour with 20kg of flour, then 40kg more flour to the final paste.   0.9/60 x 100 = 1.5% flour!!

I write to demonstrate the utmost extreme.   But we made 000s of these loaves per week.   Hamelman writes as a production baker, with a sour dough I believe he says is over 30 years old.   VB sour came from Russia and was 150 years old.   Reinhart is assuming a home audience, I believe.

I think you need to work through the following.

• Rye is eminently fermentable, especially given continuous production
• home production should involve a good elaboration of at least 2 feeds; that way a target of 5% flour in your seed is quite manageable
• Temperature and flour ratio to water are significant
• As with all sour dough work; the balance of wild yeast, lactic and acetic bacteria is critical. In rye paste, the acid content is more significant than ever. BUT, the fermentability will help you here. That is why you should start with low "seed" amounts.

E-mail 2

Clarification on VB Rye feeding regime: 2.4kg "seed" [contains 900g flour, 1500g water] is feed with 20kg of flour and 33kg of water.

Yes, you did read that correctly!!

Now for the qualifier: we had 16 bins of rye sour on the go at any one time, and each of the bins contained in excess of 50kg as described above.   We made over 1000 loaves each day of Rossisky and Borodinsky combined.   So; lots and lots of bread production, producing extremely vigorous culture.

I think you may struggle to really appreciate the volumes involved here.

Then I note you want to keep your cultures ambient rather than stored in the fridge.   I keep both my rye and wheat leaven at home in the fridge.   Then, I use a proper feeding regime to bring them to full activity before I use them to make bread.   Such as the Detmolder method described by Hamelman.   I've never really been one for the ratios, although I can see their intention.   Main key to me is to achieve the fundamental balance Jeffrey Hamelman describes so well.   NATURAL [wild] YEAST, ACETIC and LACTIC BACTERIA.   You need them all!   So in an 18hour ferment of the size and consistency I describe for the VB production, these conditions were a given.   In the home environment, this is not quite the case.   Nonetheless, rye is eminently fermentable, especially wholegrain.   So, a couple of feeds, over a 2 day period, and you won't be wide of the mark.

Final word; I don't retard rye paste; unlike a recent thread advocates.   It just hasn't worked for me for all-rye breads.

E-mail 3

stick with the ratios if it works for you.

I'm a total stickler for wanting to know the precise amount of pre-fermented flour used in the formula, and the hydration.   I never, ever guess anything...unless forced to by the circumstances [ie a rare occasion when no digital scales are available.