Philippe Gosselin's Pain à l'Ancienne (according to Peter Reinhart, interpretted by dmsnyder, with modifications)
Gosselin Pain a l'Ancienne
Gosselin baguettes
Gosselin baguette Crumb
Gosselin Pain Rustique
Gosselin Pain Rustique Crumb
Both Peter Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice" (BBA) and Daniel Leader's "Local Breads" contain formulas for "Pain à l'Ancienne," based on the explorations during the 1990's by several Parisian bakers of lengthening bulk fermentation to achieve improved flavor. Of course, these techniques could not have been used in the "old days" that the name of the bread implies. Bakers devoted to this new technique use modern refrigeration which was not available to their ancestors.
Reinhart based his version of pain à l'ancienne on that of Philippe Gosselin. In BBA, Reinhart describes Gosselin's method in very general terms and then says the formula he provides is modified to make it easier for home bakers. In January, 2003 Reinhart sent a message to an internet mailing list which contained a detailed enough account of what Gosselin told him to write a formula. For me, the original formula did not seem more difficult than the one Reinhart published. This is because I almost always bake on weekends when I can accommodate my activities to the original formula. So, I thought I would give it a try. My interpretation of Reinhart's interpretation is as follows:
Pain à l'Ancienne of Philippe Gosselin, as described by Peter Reinhart
Flour.......................500 gms
Water......................375 gms
Salt.........................8.75 gms-
Instant yeast...............5 gms
Mix the flour with 325 gms of ice cold water and refrigerate overnight.
The next day, remove mixture from refrigerator. Add yeast, salt and another 25-50 gms of cold water and mix thoroughly for 4-6 minutes.
Ferment at room temperature until doubled in bulk (up to 6 hours).
One hour before baking, preheat oven to 460F.
Divide into 4 equal piece and gently pre-shape into torpedos.
Rest dough 10 minutes.
Shape into baguettes by stretching to 12-14 inches, score and bake immediately with steam at 460F.
The breads I made today used the following modification and extrapolations:
1. I used 50 gms of Guisto's rye flour and 450 gms of KAF Bread Flour.
2. After the long "autolyse," I mixed the flour and water with 30 gms of additional water, the yeast and the salt. The autolysed dough had moderate gluten development already and didn't want to take in the additional water with hand stirring, so I did the best I could with a scraper, then mixed in my KitchenAid with the paddle for about 3 minutes, then the dough hook for another 3 minutes. I then transferred the dough to a 2 quart glass pitcher and used Hamelman's in-the-bowl stretch and fold technique - 20 folds, 3 times at 20 minute intervals over the first hour. I then let the dough rest, covered, until doubled.
3. Gosselin's instructions to Reinhart indicated the dough would take 6 hours to double. In my (warm) kitchen today, it doubled in 4 hours.
4. I emptied the dough onto a flour-dusted board and dusted the top. I divided the dough into 3 parts. I pre-shaped the two smaller ones into rectangles and folded each long side to the middle and sealed the seams. Those, I rested with the seams down for about 10 minutes then stretched into "baguettes" and placed them on floured parchment paper. The larger piece was just cut in half to make pain rustique, rested and similarly placed on parchment.
5. I baked at 460F with steam on a pizza stone. After 7 minutes, I removed the loaf pan and skillet and continued to bake for a total of 20 minutes. I then turned the oven off, cracked it open, and left the loaves on the stone for an additional 5 minutes.
Comments
These breads had a nice, crunchy crust and an open, tender, somewhat chewy crumb. The taste was classic sweet baguette - as good as I have ever made. My wife liked it, but said she preferred the taste of the Anis baguettes with sourdough added. No surprise, as we are both partial to sourdough breads.
I was concerned that the pre-shaping of the baguettes, which Reinhart does not call for in his adaptation of Gosselin's formula, would decrease the openness of the crumb too much. It was more open than I expected. I guess I have learned to handle dough gently enough. On the other hand, it would be worthwhile to try making baguettes with this method but just cutting the dough and stretching it, without any other shaping, to see if the crumb would be even more open.
If your baking schedule allows for Gosselin's method, I would certainly recommend you give it a try. In my hands, it makes very fine baguettes.
The pains rustique require no forming, and are essentially like ciabattas. Reinhart says this dough can also be stretched into a circle or rectangle and used for pizza. I have not tried that and would be interested in hearing from anyone who does so.
David
Comments
David
Just this morning, I thought about starting a topic about this bread because after you published the technique the other day, I made them. So, I wanted to see if anyone else had and what they thought about it. I didn't take pictures. So, what a great surprise to see that you did them.
First of all, they look wonderful!
Second of all, a couple of months ago I made the Jacques Torrès chocolate chip cookies that call for an overnight rest in the fridge. This brought out an incredible hazelnut flavour in the dough, that, mixed with the butter and brown sugar was sheer heaven. So, when I made these baguettes, the first thing I noticed when biting in it was that strong hazelnut taste. I don't know why, but having the flour sit alone with the water really brought out this flavour, more so than when there is yeast or sourdough.And I admit that in a baguette, I found it very disturbing and not good. So, I decided to try them again to see if the same thing happened, but I haven't had time, yet.
So, did you notice the difference in flavour? Do you eat chocolate chip cookies? If so, try the Torrès ones and then do these baguettes... or anyone else who has time to try two recipes at a time! :-)
For the moment, I definitely prefer the sourdough baguettes.
Jane
Hi, Jane.
Uuuuuh ... I'm not sure how to ask this. .... You washed the bowl from the cookie dough before mixing the bread dough in it, right? ;-)
I didn't get any nutty flavors in my baguettes. Just nice, sweet wheatiness. As I said: "Classic baguette flavor." Of course, I would expect you to get "flavour," but that's not important.
Do I eat chocolate chip cookies? This is a joke, isn't it? My wife, who is the resident cookie baker, can't make too many. She makes about 3 dozen at a time, and the two of us go through them in less than a week. Her recipe starts with the classic Tollhouse Cookie recipe, but uses brown sugar and almost always adds nuts (walnuts, almonds or cashews), almond butter (which we have discussed in another thread) and granola. We can pretend they are "healthy," in spite of all the butter. BTW, I love chocolate chip cookies together with a tart peach or nectarine.
I do not know the Jacques Torres recipe. Would you share it or point to a source for it?
David
David,
Hazelnut taste... I swear it's true!!!! :-) Well, I guess maybe I'm the nut around here.
Here's the recipe:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/dining/091crex.html
Do get your wife to try it so you can tell me what you think as avid cookie eaters.
Jane
PS. So do you mash that peach on top of the cookies, or take one bite here and one bite there. :-)
Hi, Jane.
I'm sure there is something about the physiology of taste that explains your "hazelnut flashbacks." Try tasting the baguettes again after a few days without hazelnuts.
Thanks for the link. I'll print out the recipe.
My wife thinks she doesn't like hazelnuts in baked goods. I love them, especially freshly dry roasted. Anyway, she pounced on Bart's Speculoos recipe as soon as I mentioned it and is baking those today, along with a batch of fresh tomato sauce, salmon cakes and .... something else. She would not take it well if I gave her another cooking chore right now. I'll just leave the recipe where she will happen to come across it par hazard.
Added: I see the recipe does not call for hazelnuts. That's your addition. Hmmmm ... Soft cookies. My wife/cookie baker likes the crisp all the way through style. Oh, well.
Peaches and chocolate chip cookies: Definitely alternating bites. And, it's one of those things where, if you run out of one of them before the other, it is mandatory to get more of the one you have run out of. You can finish off a batch of cookies quite fast this way.
David
There aren't any hazelnuts anyware! It's just that I personally find that flour and water, autolysed together over night, then baked CREATE a hazelnut taste... or what I perceive to be like hazelnut... let's say a nutty taste... that doesn't happen when yeast is added (or starter). That makes a different taste. So, I thought if you tried the cookie recipe you might see what I mean because the same thing happens in both types of recipes where the flour and moisture sit for a long time.
Maybe on her beside table...
Jane
It's not a flashback after all. It's a delusion!
I apologize for the misunderstanding. Well, then ... I can't say that I recall getting a nut-like flavor from a bread, unless it had nuts in it. But your taste sense may be more acute than mine. (I've smoked a pipe since Sir Walter Raleigh first brought sot weed back from the colonies, you know.)
Re. Torres Cookies: I put the recipe where she stacks bills to pay. If I put it by the bedside table, I'm afraid she would read it, get hungry and have to get up for a snack.
David
Delusions...
Or maybe it is our WONDERFUL French flour! :-)
Oh, yes, that's risky... the stack of bills is better. Darn, you should have put the article about them with the recipe because if she reads the article, she'll have to run to the kitchen to try because it said they are the BEST chocolate chip cookies in the world!
Jane
Hmmmm .... She believes her own chocolate chip cookies are the best in the world. Her only competition is our younger son. He uses the same recipe but has a magic touch with them. I've not had better, but we do prefer crunchy to chewy in our chocolate chip cookies.
I'm sure you appreciate this is a matter requiring some delicacy.
David
Before I continue I must congratulate your efforts. Those are truly lovely looking baguettes David.
However, seeing your results and comments also mark the end of my baguette quest. Quite frankly I'm dismayed. Over the last few months I have spent countless hours working diligently in my somewhat limited kitchen (I own no couche, no professional tools, no peel and only a modest pizza stone). I persevered because I felt that I could rely on the support of the people here on the forums. Your energy and motivation has been infectious and I hoped that I could participate and share in the ongoing discovery and learning.
And yet everytime I felt like I made progress - I received comments either questioning or belittling my achievement. For example - I'll talk about sourdough baguettes and get criticised for even thinking that such a thing is possible. I suggest that I focus on making a 'fluffy baguette and I'm told that it's impossible and undesirable. (FWIW I've been experimenting with long autolyse a la Gosselin - long before I ever even heard of Gosselin or the subject even came up for discussion on these forums) I work on achieving a sweet, wheaty flavour from the dough only to find that everyone is only interested in getting 'sour' flavour....apparently in contradiction to their own previous opinions.
Small wonder then I'm left with a very bad taste in my mouth over this entire 'baguette quest'...I wish you well in your future endeavours. Forgive me if I don't feel like sharing further in that.
FP
Hey Foolish poolish, now you're being a bit foolish!
That is now three posts that you have done where you belittle yourself and your efforts and don't reply when we answer back. You absolutely cannot say that your efforts don't interest us.
For the sourdough baguette, I still don't like a 100% sourdough baguette, but that's my problem. Both you and Pat make gorgeous ones that you love. I like at least a bit of yeast because it does make a lighter crumb compartively. Your last baguettes were gorgeous. You also told us that you hadn't quite finalized the recipe, so we have been waiting!
And I still hate sour sourdough, that hasn't changed! As for the long initial autolyse without yeast/levain, it is definitely worth playing around with.
It's only human nature to follow "guides". You enjoy going blind and playing around and that is more power to you. But do understand other bakers that need or look for some basic guides and then play around with them. Imagine the world if there weren't any masters to inspire. And now that we know them, maybe your experimental recipes will seem more logical to us.
And we are only a limited group of people, with limited time. I know for myself, I often read posts, am inspired by them but don't necessarily have or take the time to respond. So, that means many people read but don't say anything. I looked at the stats for my bread blog and saw that I have been getting record audience, yet when you look at the commentaries, there aren't that many. People read, but often don't say so.
Jane
I do hope you will try this formula. If I understand your preferences, you might find this approach to your liking.
As I said in responding to your last expressions of discouragement, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.
Please don't take other's statements of personal preference as judgements regarding your own preferences. You have as much right to your tastes as anyone else.
Again, my only criticism is that you are unduly harsh on yourself.
Have a good day. Please.
David
I, for one, can assure you that your experiments, efforts and posts are greatly appreciated. It's also your right to express your opinion without having your "paper graded", so to speak. I too opted out of the baguette quest. Hang in there.
Howard
You just keep amazing me. The pain rustique looks really intersting. I have tried Reinhart's Pain Ancienne in the past with mixed results. I'll use your notes/post and give it another try in the near future. Thanks so much for sharing.
Howard
This whole baguette quest has been loads of fun. As I've said, who can beat experiments with such delicious data?
I made PR's pain a l'ancienne exactly once. They had really good flavor but were otherwise disappointing. I should try them again, now that I am older and wiser. Well ... older, anyway.
I recommend the pains rustiques. You get the same flavor and more aerated crumb without having to struggle with shaping. They have a different crust:crumb ration, of course. You know, Calvel supposedly said pain rustique made with baguette dough was his personal favorite bread.
David
David,
I'm by no means an authority on the subject but I had the same experience with PR's pain a l'ancienne. It was particularly disappointiing, considering his statement in the intro. to the recipe: "Without a question this is the dough that has gotten the most recent attention from my students...and around the country in my day-long workshops for home bakers".
Howard
Hi, Howard.
Yeah. Well, there are lots of kinds of "attention."
The original Gosselin formula produced the best tasting baguettes I've made. As a matter of fact, I'm getting ready to bake some for dinner tonight.
The exploration of cold fermentation in general has been very productive. Viz. the Anis Bouabsa baguettes and their derivatives such as my pain de campagne/San Joaquin Sourdough. I have the latter fermenting in the refrigerator to bake tomorrow, as it happens.
David
Re: "gets a lot of attention", guess caveat emptor comes into play here. Have a good weekend.
Howard
My favourite kind of rolls - and they split to toast for breakfast wonderfully.
Hi David,
Thank you for your blog and this post! Naturally I was interested to see how your Pain a l'Ancienne came out, and it is nothing short of beautiful. The baguette shaping I envy, and the crumb is lovely and open and even shiny! The way you got the flour to shade the crust so delicately is superb as well, and the scoring just invites the eye. Artisanal baking in the very best sense.
The sweet and wheaty taste you mention is the reason behind the unusual initial technique. The theory, of course, is that the immediate chill allows for enzymatic action that releases more sugar than the yeast can consume, hence more for the palette and the sweeter taste. I'm not sure I've had that many baguettes as sweet as this makes, but sweetness, like mileage, may vary.
I appreciate your can-do spirit and the artful results you are getting. I wish I had more time to admire in words the Pain Rustique, but I'll come back for that at another time.
The variety of your adventures is inspirational, so please keep up the great work!
Soundman (David)
The "secret" of shaping these baguettes is to just pull the cut pieces of dough into baguette shape. No kidding.
The dough is extremely soft and hard to score well. I was surprised how much bloom I got, to be frank. Maybe the Komichi tomato knife I used helped.
I use a flour "shaker" - a metal can with a perforated top - to dust flour on the bench and on dough, when called for. It does a better job than I could do by hand. I use the same for flouring fish filets, for example, before sauteing.
Thanks for your nice comments.
David
David,
It goes to show that it's all about the dough. The cuts may not look boulangerie identical, but they are lovely. (I love my Pure Komachi. I've lost my fear of dragging and tearing the dough.)
And why didn't I think of that, a flour shaker? I need one of those... You got the crust picture perfect.
David (Soundman)
Hi David,
I just baked 4 baguettes based on your instructions; they are divine...I ate one of them myself just as they are cooling down, good result, great crust, nice rustic crumb with plenty of irregular holes, a joy to prepare the poolish, mix - as you say, the dough doubles/triples within two hours+ (it is in the 80's inside the house today had to turn on the a/c), the only thing I didn't do was not to leave them in the turned off oven as I was preparing to bake your Semolina Filone which is almost baked, on that separately.
Thanks again, let me see what other recipes you have and I will "attend" to them in the next few days,
Enjoy the Sunday,
Stefan
I'm delighted the Gosselin baguettes worked well for you . I'd love to see photos (if any are left to photograph).
Of the "plain" baguettes I've made, the Gosselin's have the nicest flavor. But there are still other recipes I've yet to try.
So, you made a Semolina Filone! I gather the gloppy dough didn't freak you out. Brave man!
Happy baking!
David
a flour shaker... thats a good one. i'll give it a try.
I use a 60 cents tea strainer, but sometimes it strains a bit too enthusiastic.
nice ficelles david. thats the way I like them.
David
Getting ready to try your recipe (the best compliment). Rheinhart says preheat to 550º, then lower to 475 after last spritz. What do you think about this?
Joe
Just so I'm clear, there's no yeast in the pre-ferment/autolyze? If not the result is a cold congealed slab of flour and water, which is like impossible to mix yeast and salt into. Do you add the water first to looosen up everything and then add the salt and yeast? I added the salt and yeast first because that's what the directions state but it was very hard to incorporate the dry ingredients into the slab. It turns very gloppy so I basically just used my hands to try to squish everything together. The dough is rising now so I can't report on the results yet. It's my first time using instant yeast and i've wanted to try this recipe for a long time, just seems wacky.
Hi, md_massimino.
Sorry. I just saw your question now. How did your baguettes turn out?
Yes. The autolyse just has flour and water.
As you can see in my original post, incorporating the other ingredients after the autolyse was a challenge to me, too.
I think the salt will tighten the gluten and make it even harder to get the additional water in, so I'd add the water first.
Since making these, I've read about the "double hydration" technique. I'd try adding the additional water little by little. I would not try doing this by hand. If you don't have a mixer, use another recipe.
David
Haven't tried the BBA formula yet, and I think I'll try this version and the one from the book to compare. Thanks for posting this! Can't wait to try it
.
The bread came out tasting very good, with nice crumb and crust but I couldn't make them take a baguette form because the dough was so wet. It struck me as more of a ciabatta dough because it was so gloppy. I also used all-purpose flour and not bread flour so that may have had something to do with the slack factor.
Now, I also tried the original Reinhart recipe which mixed all of the ingredients (including yeast) the night before and then retarded overnight. That produced about the same results taste and loaf-shape wise, but not so hard to deal with on day 2.
Two things I'm going to try tonight. I'm going to add less water after the long autolyze. I'm also going to try to use the mixer as you stated in your post. I'm really trying to find a better baguette recipe that doesn't require as much attention as the traditional ones. getting close I think, even though the results are a little hit and miss.
On another note, I began another batch of sourdough starter yesterday and that baby is already jumping after one day. I sat it by the window and by a big pile of fruit and veg. My last starters died when I went on away for a week and left them on the counter.
Reinhart says to just cut the dough and stretch it into baguette lengths, not try to shape them. They are supposed to be "rustic."
Reinhart's pain-à-l'ancienne probably needs as little "attention" as any bread I know. Another one, which I highly recommend by the way, is Pierre Nury's Light Rye from Daniel Leader's "Local Breads." The recipe for that is available on TFL.
Regarding your sd starter: The high activity on day one is not unusual, but it will quiet down for several days before the right beasties get established. Don't get discouraged when it seems to be doing nothing.
David
I bake a batch of Pain a l'ancienne two or three times a week. I primarily use the BBA recipe but I recently tried Peter's somewhat different technique that he employs in Artisan Breads Everday (ABE). All in all, I prefer the BBA technique but that may because I've done it so much, corrected a lot of my bad technique and can probably say I do it pretty well. Yesterday morning, I baked a batch of the BBA technique for a party and made a fairly bad mistake, in my opinion, although several party goers said it was the best bread they ever ate. What I did wrong was I formed it. As I cut the pieces of dough that was refrigerated for about twenty hours, it felt like regular dough, as opposed to the high hydration no kneads, so I rolled it a few times and scored it. In doing that, I degased it and the crumb was tight even though I got a pop with the oven spring. Additionally, the crust looked a tad strange. I almost thought my oven was acting up, as though it wasn't heating properly because it seemed to take longer to brown. It may be that I opened the oven door more than I normally do. In any case, I don't want to do that again. I want to add one thing about technique. When I first started baking bread, I prepared my hearth in reverse. I put the steam pan near the bottom of the oven, and the stone on a rack higher up. I don't know why I did it that way, but what you get is a pale underside. In an electric oven, its best to have the stone near the bottom element for more heat, and better underside browning. I am positive everyone else in this forum knows this, but I had to say it anyway, if for no other reason than to cleanse my soul...
I can't put pictures and words together nicely. I tried but it alread took a coulple hours to do it.
Anyway, I was jumping around our house because I finally had nice baguettes that I admired. I had baked more than 200 baguettes since April 2010. I couldn't have big holes and open crumbs that I was really looking for. I will try to bake more good baguettes...
I really thank you, David. Thank you so much!!!
Your baguettes look very nice.
David
David,Your compliment makes me happier than when I saw the baguettes came out of the oven!! I have another poolish for tomorrow already.
Thank you again,
teketeke
Very helpful, thank you for posting your recipe, especially
I'm not sure what you are really asking. Are you implying using grams (presumably instead of ounces ... or is it cups?) is un-American?
I prefer weights in grams rather than pounds and ounces because calculations are just a lot easier dealing with a decimal system.
You measure weights in grams with a scale. Most digital scales sold in the USA will measure in both grams and ounces/pounds. Most measure to within 1 gram. Fractions of grams have to be estimated, unless you have an exceptional scale.
As far as I know, the French measure in the same way we do, i.e., with scales.
Happy baking!
David
FWIW:
I noticed that 5 grams of instant yeast was used. In Reinhart's message ( http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/43313#comment-43313 , he mentions 1% fresh yeast. I would guess that is why the rise was only 4 hours. I made my first attempt yesterday and had a rise of 3 1/2 hours (using IDY).
- Mitch
After a very long time using Reinhart's BBA Pain l'Ancienne as my sole baguette recipe (with increased hydration and prolonged fermentation) I felt the urge to once again experiment after I borrowed BBA from a neighbor and re-read it cover-to-cover. His "French Bread" looked so tidy compared to my baguettes that I tried the recipe and got well shaped but pale and tasteless loaves. Soooo, I returned to this bookmarked page.
Other than using KA AP flour and preheating to 550° I followed the above recipe precisely. Well, maybe not. I was multitasking and when attempting to incorporate the extra water, yeast and salt into the autolyse, I allowed some of the water and yeast to fly all over the mixer, counter, cabinets... you get the picture! I added a bit more yeast and then later added water until it felt right. It took almost 6 hours in my cool kitchen for the dough to double, partly because I left the dough in the metal mixer bowl. I did not pre-shape the baguettes.
The result: the best bread I have ever eaten, bar none, with a delightful crisp crust and marvelous flavor. (Please excuse the "slashing"-- I tried the scissors method for the first time and will return to the lamé)
Having said that, I didn't love having to deal with that cold lump of flour and water, and as David said, it would pretty much impossible to work with it solely by hand as I sometimes prefer to do. So today I will try a hybrid of Gosselin and Reinhart with an extended room temp autolyse, a shorter knead with the mixer followed by some stretch-and-folds to result in a slightly firmer dough than I've been using, and then a prolonged (2-3 day) cold retarded fermentation.
A long, cool fermentation does make for complex flavors, as long as you don't over-ferment.
David
Rainy day with a chance of tornado's, so having a delayed start to my day and came across this site. I have been making this bread since Reinhart's book came out. I have a lot of experience with this bread, since I've baked this bread hundreds of times in batches of 12, 24 or 36 loafs. I have tried to vary the recipe from the book, to make it my own, but always come back to the basic recipe. I work in an assembly line fashion, keep everything cold and turn the AC on when necessary, I have made every mistake, I keep a mental record of what I did when I was able to extract out the most flavor, best texture. To make bread baking, turn into a magical musical creative experience you need to become intimate with a bread you love, when you find the loaf you can't live without, repeat it until you develop a gluten intolerance and have too many friends knocking on your door, at odd hours, wanting bread. I am on my 3rd Dacor oven, the best residential oven on the market, but not build for this kind of use (abuse). I use two 1" thick stones, bake 4 loafs at a time on "convection bake setting" starting at 550 and baking at 440 to 460, I bake in multiples of 12. The bread is best in my opinion when a good batch is on its third day being refrigerated. I freeze excess loafs and keep them in the freezer double bagged, I've left them in the freezer for months at a time, although they get the freezer flavor they still are the best tasting bread in my and all my friends opinion. Just defrost 20 minutes throw in an oven at 350 10 to 12 minutes after dampening the surface with water from your hands and presto and toasting amplifies the already incredible Hazelnut flavor, although I say Nocciola being of northern Italian heritage. The best I ever made was in a wood fired brick oven I built. The temperature was between 600 and 800 degrees. When the bread hits the floor of the oven and is surrounded by the intense heat the skin draws tight and forms a beautiful baguette and the added flavor of smoke and ash with semolina and maldon salt on top and it turns into the illegal substance that I have gotten many people strung out on. I have been know to give 20, 30 loafs away when I didn't hit my mark. Experiment with all the different flours available and find your favorite, keep track of the times you delay and what were the results, how cold is cold enough, how long you let it rise, how you handle it. It is all important, I have had this bread from very good bakery's with the best equipment and great bakers, BUT if one person mixes the dough another gets it ready for baking and a third bakes it, the magical connection is lost and the best they can do is great not incredible. That is Gosselin's genius, his were the only fingers on the Ivory's.
David I followed your recipe exactly and some really good bread (for me) came out. For my personal focus I wanted to be able to compare directly with your sourdough version that I just got done making. So I shaped by cutting the dough into three pieces and stretching only, no other shaping. I did find though that leaving the stretched shapes rest for about 30 mins before putting in the oven gave a slightly better lift. Also lower yeast and longer bulk ferment time gave significantly better flavor.
I am posting pictures of three bakes. I didn't like how chewy the crumb and how hard and chewy the crust was. You commented on using flour with less gluten and so did someone else. I experimented with KAF AP, Wheat Montana AP, and Pillsbury Unbleached AP. I thought the lower gluten flours (the latter two) would give me bread with poor volume and maybe also a poor crumb. But that was not true.
cont
OK I wanted to post some more pictures but my picts are uploading so big I am running out of space in the post. The above baguettes were prepared from KAF AP.
I wanted to add that the crumb was wonderfully open and there was plenty of volume even with low gluten flours. And most importantly the crumb was tender and the crust thin and crisp and very, very shiny and very blistered. How come so shiny and blistered?
The flavor was sweet. We all loved it.
David, if I may, here is another question: I want to make a crust that is thicker. It is thicker, but not hard or dense. Its a airy, thick crust. Crunchy. Its easy to break but does not fall apart. Absolutely not leathery. Do you know how to achieve such a crust?
And how do I post smaller picts?
Thank you so much David!
I especially love the open crumb with the gelatinized starch shininess.
The shiny crust is also from gelatinized starch. This occurs when you have a lot of steam in your oven. If you find it too shiny, cut back on the steaming.
The classic French baguette has a thin, shatteringly crackly crust. Lower protein flours tend to result in crisper, thinner crust. Most find that desirable in baguettes. A longer bake with also result in a thicker crust, but you may not like the result otherwise. Leaving the loaves in the oven, with the oven off and the door ajar may also thicken the crust some.
The crust I get with most sourdough baguettes is crunchy at first and becomes chewy with complete cooling.
Regarding making photos smaller: This depends on your camera and any software you have . I use an iPhone 5S and process the photos with an antique copy of Adobe Photoshop Essentials. That program lets me "Save for the web," with which I can specify the photo size. I think there are many programs and utilities that have this function.
David
Thank you so much David! You are way too kind and patient to answer my many questions :)
I didn't realize one has to resize pictures before loading..I thought there was a button here that had to be pushed to get pictures to appropriate size...lets see if and how it works this time....
Do you know why I would get a more glossy crumb sometimes and at other times less when I am baking to at least 210 F always?
In my mind I am baking with steam really to get the oven spring or rise. So the crust does not dry over before the dough has adequately expanded. If a shiny crust happens, great. Are you saying that I may be steaming more than I need to have? How can you tell if you have given enough steam?
Now to try the Anis Bouabsa baguette!
I really don't know how to get that shiny crumb. I'm just happy when it happens.
You are correct regarding the main purpose of steaming the oven. There is some point beyond which there is no additional gain, though. Usually, in a home oven, 10 to 12 minutes of steaming is enough. But that depends on how you steam. Baking in Dutch ovens, I don't remove the cover for 30 minutes, but the only source of steam is evaporation from the loaf.
I don't like either a dull crust or one that is extremely shiny. Your preference may be different.
David
Hi David! Thank you again for your kind and knowledgeable guidance.
Through out this thread there is a lament of how hard it is to incorporate the liquid for the second hydration. I will share something that I do and have learned recently. This thread is from long ago so you may know this already, in which case I apologize.
The 'trick' is to just add the water to the lump of dough and let it get it get absorbed over time as you stretch and fold. This results in just as good a bread, in my experience a better bread. The crumb is much more open. Leave alone just how easy it is.
So:
1) Measure out the water. Dissolve the yeast in a little of the water, depending on the amount of dough and amount of water, in this case about 1 Tbs. Dissolve the salt in the remaining water.
2) Dimple the surface of the dough, add smear some of the yeast liq onto the surface. Reaching underneath fold sections of the dough from the edges and press more of the yeast liq on to the fresh surface. Then fold the dough a little for one or two mins and most of the liq will be absorbed.
3) Pour the remaining liq (salt-water) over the dough. press the dough into the liq, flip over, do this a couple of times to get the dough wet. Then do big stretch & folds and flip the dough over and continue for 3 or 4 mins. Do not squeeze, squish, cut or puncture the dough. No struggle. You are not trying to get the dough to absorb the water. Just guide the water in between the folds. The dough will become extremely extensible in the presence of the salted water. It may even look like its shredding like old rags. No worry. Just do a few S&F, getting the water in between the folds and then stop. Some of the water will be absorbed, some will remain a puddle around the dough. It will become milky from some flour washing out.
4)Continue with the S&F. By about the one hour or one hour and a quarter the water will be absorbed and the dough perfect. It will become somewhat laminated. If you have a big quantity of dough it will take longer but it will work.
WHEW! Finally I can post pictures. With this recipe and my hands this is what I am getting! I have tried it three times with three different flours.
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