Rye and Wheat Breads for January 2011; not for changing!

Hi Larry,

It's really good to hear from you!

I'm used to rye breads being pretty wet.   To me, this paste was spot-on.   That also takes into account Shiao-Ping's very useful comment last year about the empirical affect of using molasses.   Although here, it was only at 5%.

Daisy_A will no doubt attest to this: our Bacheldre Rye flour lurves water too.   Honestly, 85% hydration is a constant target and expectation I have with these rye breads.   You just have to take that into account when baking off a lump of paste weighing the best part of 2kg, of which almost 900g is water!   But "rye needs a lot of water" is a good baseline

As for the 2 leavens; it is my formula, although you know how much I follow the work of Hamelman and what I learn from it.   Jeffrey Hamelman himself recommends this procedure for autolyse, if I'm not mistaken?   This is what he has to say on page 9.

Salt, yeast and pre-ferments are not included in this phase (with the exception of a liquid-levain culture or a poolish...

He goes on to write:

Pre-ferments are generally not added because of the presence of both yeast activity and acidity.   The exception to this are when a liquid levain or a poolish is used.   In these cases, the higher percentage of water that is present in the pre-ferment is enough that, if the remaining water were mixed without including the pre-ferment, there would be insufficient water to hydrate the flour

Hamelman, J (2004; pp.9)

My guess is that your curiosity is answered

All good wishes

Andy

Hi Larry,

I start from the base of not including leaveners or salt in any autolyse.

Then I apply 2 exceptions.   First is any liquid starters.   Second is dried yeast.   However, since I use dried yeast only once in a blue moon in any combination, I can't think of a time it's come anywhere near a dough I was preparing using autolyse!

So, I automatically go with your second idea, and don't really relate to the first one.

Here's a thought: salt is left out.   The hydration in the autolyse is 68%.   So that makes a lot more water available in this first stage to induce enzymatic reactions by hydrating starch and protein.   If I added the wheat levain, that would reduce the water availability.   And the flour in the leaven is pre-fermented, so it has no use for autolyse.

I've never really questioned Hamelman's recommendations for autolyse.   I stick to them because I believe them to be completely correct.

Many thanks, as always, for your kind words

All good wishes

Andy

Hi Peter,

I see you are from the UK and have only just joined TFL.   In which case a very warm welcome to you!

I have some good news, and, maybe, not such good news for you.

Let's start with the obstacles and go from there.   If you are to build up a viable colony of wild yeast and bacteria and thus create a strong starter, then yes, you really will be making life so much easier for them if you can create a temperature they like.   The key is to build your starter very strong in the first place, through correct feeding and use of temperature.   You could try a heat jacket, or a plant propogator.   Some people on here use their oven with just the oven light switched on.   What about a large plastic box with a good lid, and a decent light bulb inside?   There must be some means you can come up with: you need a temperature range say 28 - 35*C to get the thing moving.

Now the better news.   Once you have a good starter, it will be less temperature dependent for success.   This is especially the case if you use Dark Rye, or Whole Rye flour, as this is so eminently fermentable.   I am not saying you will get the same level of performance as if you had a warm environment, as you will not.   But, once your culture is well-established, it will become viable, and multiply, even at cooler temperatures.

There are debates about age of sourdough cultures.   Some bakers like to use their starters only for short periods, then discard and start afresh.   Others, me included, like to keep the same culture going and build its strength through feeding and frequent use.   Again, especially rye.   Much will come down to experience, Peter, and to gain that you will just have to experiment.   Don't give up, please, as you will get there.   I do advise finding someway to warm up your leavens and doughs, however.   It will make a lot of difference I promise.

Many thanks for commenting here, and for your kind words.   If you need further specific advice, you just have to ask.

Best wishes

Andy

Meanwhile over here...

Let's start with the ever difficult topic of flour, and how it differs both sides of the pond.

Yes, I did specify a strong white flour.   I used Allinson Strong White Bread Flour.   Granted it is an "industrial" flour, but I was quite impressed with its performance.   It specifically references use for bread and pizza, which I thought was quite interesting given the need [sorry] for plenty of extensibility in pizza dough.

The protein read is 12.1g per 100g of flour.   I do insist, as ever, that the headline figure can only ever be a guide.   The quality of the glutenin and gliadin fractions is what really counts.   And, these 2 fractions do not account for the total protein content, as other proteins such as albumens and globulins are also found in the wheatberry.   Anyway, it's a pretty good flour, but not one of those superstrong varieties.

So, what of the much-respected King Arthur All-Purpose flour?   A scout on KA website can take you here: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html    The flour listed as Sir Galahad is the same as the grade sold as All-Purpose at the retail end of things, according to Larry.   I consider him an extremely reliable source on matters King Arthur.

A protein read of 11.7% is scarcely any different to the 12.1% I used really.   Added to which, the ash content in the flour is less than 0.5%, so equivalent to calling it a Type 48 French flour [yes, I know it is usually sold at Type 45 and 50]   Granted, the Allinson does not quote ash content, but I'd lay money on it being higher than 0.48%   Higher ash content means greater mineral content derived from the outer parts of the grain.   By extension, I take that to mean there will be more protein from the outer part of the grain; protein which does not contribute to gluten content.

My other point would be that, having watched the video of Hamelman mixing the baguette dough, I really do ask for serious consideration of dough development from what really is a high quality flour...and I mean for bread!   For the most part [there are a few exceptions, apparently], if anyone made bread with plain flour from the UK, it would not turn out well.   We do not have "All Purpose" as a regular High Street grade.   Believe me, I do understand the counsel not to rely on the really high gluten flours for anything except certain specialist products [bagels come to mind, Lindy your beautiful examples in particular!]...I agree with that.   But North American AP, especially this King Arthur brand, is clearly a high quality flour, on a par with the flour type I used in the formula above.   So, I don't believe it is to do with choice of wheat flour; but I do think it could well be to do with the rye sour performance.

One little aside, as I know Louie made a point of trying to follow all the procedures above very carefully.   The final proof only had a period of refrigeration to allow for successful oven production schedule.   At the point when I shaped the dough for final proof, I was about to load the rye sourdough tinned loaf into my oven.   That loaf was 2kg in weight, plus the metal of the Pullman Pan, necessitating a long slow bake.   So, the period in the chiller was only necessary to retard final proof to accommodate other breads in production.

On to levels of development, and why I moved the discussion back here.   You can clearly see that I mixed the dough to achieve window pane.   I received able assistance from my wife, Alison, to capture this photo.   So, have you all watched the Hamelman video and listened to his comments on not over-mixing?   At this point we need to consider what levels constitute over-mixing.   You see, I would argue that the dough coming off Jeffrey's lovely spiral mixer was pretty well developed, especially compared to the standards realistically achievable in a home environment.   Hamelman's worked all over the world, and he's been around a long time.   He will, like me, be quite used to bakers throwing seemingly endless amounts of energy into a dough.   He specifically references caratenoid pigments in the video, and he gives mixing time, and information on number of revolutions of the bowl.   I have quite a bit of experience of working with plant bakers in the UK, who use high speed mixers, under vacuum to turn out dough for their beloved Chorleywood Bread Process.   This is what I imagine Jeffrey Hamelman to be counseling against.   I don't believe he is saying "you should under mix the dough"; instead, like me, it is a case of mixing to achieve good development without subjecting the dough to the stresses of high energy.   Please bear in mind that Hamelman's book was primarily written for professional bakers.   The section on mixing is testament to this, in its discussion of spiral mixers, revolutions, etc.

So, my text above does advocate dough development.   For all that, I do work my dough up by hand.   It is quite possible to overmix dough in a machine on a domestic scale.   However, one look at the crumb of the loaf produced by louie quickly dispels any notion that the dough was over-mixed.

The photos speak for themselves in respect of dough quality.   The hydration proved entirely correct throughout.   Combining salt, autolyse and wheat levain produced a fairly soft and sticky mass to start with.   But, look how it came together smooth, silky, and it window paned.    From there, note the picture of the relaxed dough, then the effect of S&F.   Not quite as good as seeing Jeffrey Hamelman patting his dough affectionately during the S&F phase, but I'm still really pleased with this.

Then there is shaping.   Lindy makes this point, and it is so true how important it is to use a strong hand, but need for real care and sensitivity in the moulding.   I know my hand is dirty [SORRY!], but I think these pictures are representative.   Firstly to achieve a nice shape to the dough piece, then mould it up tightly, but without tearing the dough.

I had an interesting discussion develop with David Snyder, here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21644/miche-hit#comment-152745

I so wish I could have baked these loaves in my deck oven in College.   The core of the big loaf had a tighter crumb than the extremities.   Whatever tricks we home bakers use in the oven, it is not possible to match up exactly the benefits of the extra power of the commercial beast...except with the wood-fired oven of course!!!

So, if a more open crumb is your one big aim, then you'll be best off going down Khalid's recommended route, and produced a wetter dough for spring in the oven.   My purpose is to demonstrate the same can be achieved used a dough which is hydrated at a slightly lower level, and is mixed to a good degree of development.   For the big miche, good bottom heat, plus steam injection really helps to complete the result throughout the whole loaf.   But that is the case for any loaf of this type.

A little thought to end: Hydration.   Sir Galahad is listed at 61% in the reference I list above.   I look to achieve 63% in a standard white panned bread, which I take as a standard test, and expect the figure quoted by KAF to be for a similar type dough.   I use an All Canadian flour for this in College, and the manufacturers rightly describe it as "world class flour" [protein content is again, just over 12%]Yet, I increased hydration to nearly 67% here.   My point is that, actually, this is a high hydration dough!!   It just is not "the wetter the better" on this particular blog poster's page.   The right water for the dough you are trying to make, and correct hydration levels to satisfy the starches, proteins and fibre in the flour of choice.

All good wishes

Andy

Hi DaisyA,

Thanks for this.   The Allinson is a good flour, but there will be a lot more British wheat in the grist.   However, the specifications will be pretty similar, I reckon!

Best wishes

Andy