Pain de Campagne
Pain_de_CampagneBatard
Pain_de_CampagneGrigne
Pain_de_CampagneCrumb
The formula for this bâtard is derived from that for Anis Bouabsa's baguettes, as shared with TFL by Janedo. Jane prompted me to add some sourdough starter, and this resulted in a big improvement, to my taste. We had also discussed adding some rye flour to the dough. Jane said she and her family really liked the result. The addition of rye and sourdough makes this more like a pain de campagne, which is traditionally shaped as a boule or bâtard. The result of my mental meandering follows:
Formula
Active starter ........................100 gms
KAF French Style Flour.......450 gms
Guisto's Rye Flour..................50 gms
Water......................................370 gms
Instant yeast............................1/4 tsp
Salt............................................10 gms
Mixing
In a large bowl, mix the active starter with the water to dissolve it. Add the flours and stir to form a shaggy mass. Cover tightly and let rest (autolyse) for 20 minutes.
Sprinkle the yeast over the dough and mix with a plastic scraper. Then sprinkle the salt over the dough and mix.
Using the plastic scraper, stretch and fold the dough 20 times, rotating the bowl 1/5 turn between each stroke. Cover tightly. Repeat this stretch and fold procedure 20 minutes later and, again, after another 20 minutes.
Fermentation
After the third series of stretches and folds, scape the dough into a lightly oiled 2 quart/2 liter container and cover tightly. (I use a 2 quart glass measuring pitcher with a tightly fitting plastic lid manufactured by Anchor Glass.) Immediately place in the refrigerator and leave it there for 21 hours. (In this time, my dough doubles in volume and is full of bubbles. YMMV.)
Dividing and Shaping
(I chose to make one very large bâtard, but you could divide the dough into 2 or 3 pieces and make smaller bâtards, boules or baguettes. Or, you could just cut the dough and not shape it further to make pains rustiques.)
Take the dough out of the refrigerator and scrape it gently onto a lightly floured work surface. Gently pat it into a rectangle. To pre-shape for a bâtard, fold the near edge up just past the center of the dough and seal the edge by gently pressing the two layers together with the ulnar (little finger) edge of your hand or the heel of your hand, whichever works best for you. Then, bring the far edge of the dough gently just over the sealed edge and seal the new seam as described.
Cover the dough with plastic wrap and/or a kitchen towel and let it rest for 30-60 minutes, with the seams facing up. (The time will depend on ambient temperature and how active your starter is. The dough should have risen slightly, but not much.)
To shape a bâtard, fold the near edge of the dough and seal the edge, as before. Now, take the far edge of the dough and bring it towards you all the way to the work surface and seal the seam with the heel of your hand. Rotate the loaf gently toward you 1/4 turn so the last seam you formed is against the work surface and roll the loaf back and forth, with minimal downward pressure, to further seal the seam. Then, with the palms of both hands resting softly on the loaf, roll it back and forth to shape a bâtard. Start with both hands in the middle of the loaf and move them outward as you roll the loaf, slightly increasing the pressure as you move outward, so the bâtard ends up with the middle highest and the ends pointed .
Preheating the oven
Place a baking stone on the middle rack and both a cast iron skillet and a metal loaf pan (or equivalent receptacles of your choosing) on the bottom shelf. Heat the oven to 500F. (I like to pre-heat the baking stone for an hour. I think I get better oven spring. Since I expected a 30 minute rest after pre-shaping and a 45 minute proofing, I turned on the oven 15 minutes after I had pre-shaped the loaf.) I put a kettle of water to boil 10 minutes before baking.
Proofing
After shaping the loaf, transfer it to parchment paper liberally dusted with semolina. Cover the loaf with plastic wrap and/or a kitchen towel. Proof until the loaf has expanded to about 1-1/2 times it's original size. (This turned out to be 30 minutes for me.) Do not over-proof, if you want good oven-spring and bloom!
Baking
Put about a cup full of ice cubes in the loaf pan on the bottom shelf of the oven and close the door.
Slip a peel or cookie sheet under the parchment paper holding the loaf. Uncover the loaf. Score it. (The bâtard was scored with a serrated tomato knife. The knife was held with its blade at about a 30 degree angle to the surface of the loaf. One swift end-to-end cut was made, about 1/2 inch deep.)
Transfer the loaf and parchment paper to the baking stone, pour one cup of boiling water into the skillet, and close the oven door. Turn the oven down to 460F.
After 15 minutes, remove the loaf pan and the skillet from the oven. Rotate the loaf 180 degrees, if it is browning unevenly. Close the oven door.
Bake for another 15 minutes, then remove the loaf and place on a cooling rack. Check for doneness. (Nice crust color. Internal temperature of at least 205F. Hollow sound when you thump the bottom of the loaf.) If necessary, return to loaf to the oven to bake longer.
Cooling
Cool on a rack for two hours before slicing.
Comments
I got very good oven spring and bloom. This loaf has an ear by which you could carry it around. It sang to me while cooling. The crust is nice and crunchy. The crumb is well aerated and almost "fluffy" in texture, but with tender chewiness. The taste is just plain good. It is minimally sour. Based on my half-vast experience, I'd say it is fairly representative of a French Pain de Campagne, the major difference being that it is less dense than the ones I recall.
This is, for me, not merely a good "novelty" bread. It could join San Francisco Sourdough and Jewish Sour Rye as an "everyday" bread I would enjoy having all the time. The method is good for those of us who work outside the home. It can be mixed in the evening and baked in time for a late dinner the next night.
Enjoy!
David
Comments
These look wonderful David! I was hoping you would work on this as a SD recipe. I'll have to give it a try. Thanks!
Eric
I'm pretty sure this would not be regarded as "a sourdough" by the purists, since it has a little instant yeast boost.
Maybe it's just my personal taste, but I've made pain au levain from BBA, "Bread" and from "Local Breads," and this one is better.
I'm hoping Jane tries this formula. I'm curious how it would seem to her and her family, as our in-house French palates.
David
I'm in awe of your drive to take on some many new experiments. You just seem to knock a new one off every day and with great success! You must have a freezer full of bread. Enjoy your write up and pix, makes for good inspiration.
Betty
You are kind.
I do like experiments, especially ones with edible data! If I get good results more often than not, that hasn't always been so. It's from all I've learned here and from consistantly striving to learn something new from every loaf I bake. (As well as from every bread others share with us on TFL.)You might look at the Pane di Genzano about which I posted last night. That's a good example of a bread from which I have a lot to learn!
I don't really bake every day. I'm almost always limited to weekends. But if it's a weekend and I'm at home, I want to be making some bread.
At the moment, my freezer does have a few loaves in it, but we keep up pretty well.
David
OOOOOOh! Lovely! I haven't had breakfast and I KNOW that would be heaven. That is bread perfection for me.
Of course I'll try it! Your active starter is at what hydration?
Jane
I'll let you know how it toasts tomorrow. I'm betting it will be delicious. :-)
It was certainly good with our dinner of red bell peppers, stuffed with a ground lamb/rice/onion/pine nut/dried current/parsley mixture and a homemade tomato sauce made with organic San Marzano tomatos from our farmers' market.
I give you full credit for inspiring this recipe. I hope my write-up provides you with the details for which you asked and that, when you make it yourself, you enjoy it as much as I do.
My starter is 75% hydration. It is fed with a mix of 70% AP, 20% WW and 10% Rye flour. So a feeding is 1 part starter, 3 parts water, 4 parts flour mixture. I use this starter to build whatever kind of starter is called for - firm or liquid.
I have been very happy with this method. As a mostly weekend baker, I keep my starter refrigerated until I am ready to activate it, typically two days before I am going to mix the dough. I have had my starter go 3 weeks without feeding with no hooch, still with good gluten and ready to raise dough after one feeding to activate it.
I do also keep a white rye sour going for breads that call for it.
David
how can you get San Marzano tomatoes from your local farmer's market you would have to be in Italy just outside of Naples, in the volcanic earth near Mt. Vesuvius - a super specific area that produces super juicy and super delicious tomatoes. there are several ways to identify the real San Marzano. Herewith: First thing you do, you check the tin's label: it MUST say "Pomodoro San Marzano dell'Agro Sarnese Nocerino D.O.P."
it MUST have the symbol of the Consorzio;
it MUST have the symbol of the DOP;
it MUST have a "N° XXXXXXX", which is the Number assigned to the tin by the Consorzio.
OK, thanks. I fed my starter and made it thick, so that should be good. I'll feed it the rye and WW this evening and start it tomorrow. Was going to do it this afternoon but school starts tomorrow and I think I'll take the kids up to a "ferme pédagogique" where they do a special snack (goûté) with local products and they have different activities for the kids. I love being around farm animals. So, the bread will wait!
I love lamb, it's my favorite meat. I cook it a lot (a couple days ago with honey, rosemary and rosé wine).Your peppers sound wonderful! Will have to try. I keep getting peppers in my fruit/véggie basket.
So, I also started a poolish for the Three Rivers Bread, a very classic French bread (from the Bread of Three Rivers book that Mike Avery recommended to me). As I am deep in to Calvel and he swears that yeast bread can be as great as levain bread, I feel like testing some recipes to see if I can get something I really love. I did the bakers % to get a dough size I like and respected his proportions to a T. But I think I'll play with the technique a bit. I don't know if he really told all in the book and I'm sure an Anis technique could make some great bread. I think I'll make the dough, put it in the fridge, but just while I'm gone (4-5 hrs) then finish it. Not longer because there s too much yeast and I want to do his recipe.
I still haven't got GIMP back and can't post pictures here. It's a bit irritating but haven't had enough time to look in to the problem.
Jane
David,
you said:
Did you mean 3 water to 1 flour? Isnt this a bit thin? Or is this a typo and you meant the other way around?
(great bread btw...!)
Lynne
Hi, Lynne.
Good pick-up! The starter feeding is, in fact, 1 part starter, 3 parts water and 4 parts flour.
I edited my message to make the correction. Thanks for catching the error!
David
Wow! Talk about picture perfect!
Pass the butter....
MommaT, Novice Baker
To my taste, bread that tastes as good as this one doesn't need butter. (I do butter it when it's toasted, unless I'm eating it with almond butter. That's tomorrow's breakfast.)
David
probably a bit off topic, but interesting comment about butter on bread. I started to make sourdough specifically so that I could cut butter out to help my diet. So now I can eat my bread without happily, although as David says a scraping of butter is good on toast.
Makes the Marmite spread easier for breakfast.
Lynne
woww, thats a really original looking pain the campagne, david.
Mmmmm, there is an autumnal lunch in the air with baked eggs, jambon de sanglier, saucisson sec....
There was a recent news article in our paper about wild pig herds coming out of the woods and devastating farms in the hills east of here. It has been a very dry year, and their usual food supply is apparently meager. They are a hybrid of native wild pigs and escaped domestic pigs.
To my knowledge, no one in this country markets products from these animals. Probably it's against various health regulations. So, no local jambon de sanglier for me.
I can say my pain de campagne is pretty good with (imported) salami Toscano, though.
David
Oh gees, David, that reminds me that hunting season starts very soon and that means wild bore. I've had a couple run down to the river by my property being shot at by the hunters (they were breaking rules!).
But it does taste good...
Jane
Having hunters shooting near my children would not be comfortable. I trust you all have full body armor.
David
Hunting is on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday, just when children don't have school and could be outside playing or when parents like to take their children for walks in the hills. It is so stupid.
So, I made you bread and I'm going to do a post on my blog about it soon because it's a great recipe. It has a lower hydration and less rye that the modified Nury's rye (the one I did to get the Nury's taste, but in a large, shaped loaf). It's interesting how a few subtle... or less subtle changes, can really make a different bread.
I haven't even tasted it yet or looked at the crumb, but it smells like heaven and is very light in weight for its size.
Jane
Hi, Jane.
I'm so glad you made it. I'm eagerly waiting to see what you made and how you like it. (And your family's critique.)
My batard is 4 days old. I had some toasted for breakfast this morning. with a thin slice cut off the end, the interior was still moist. It was pretty good I thought.
I want to make this again soon as a boule. And Eric's recent ryes make me want to get into Hamelman's ryes. It looks like another busy baking weekend ahead.
David
I tried this recipe last night, I am baking the two loaves later on, I made one with all sourdough starter (my own I hope it works!!) and one with a poolish......I made the baguettes with the same method that you had posted prior and they were very tasty! thank you for posting your recipes! I was very nervous about using preferments because all my baking experience is with regular yeast.
1) how do you activate the starter besides feeding it and leaving it at room temperature (i think you said 2 days before you bake you do this)?
sigh.......I only activated the SD 1 hour before (I am a beginner can you tell?) should I just let that dough it rise longer in the refrigerator?
Hi, mommajack.
Activating starter assumes in is not already as active as it needs to be. That may be because it has been refrigerated and the yeast and bacteria are slowed down, or because it has run out of food. If it is already active, then feeding it is just feeding it to keep it active and healthy.
For the starter to ferment dough and raise bread, the yeast and bacteria have to be active, meaning their metabolism is working well. You know this by the products of metabolism: carbon dioxide, which is what makes the dough rise, and acids, sugars and other chemical products which make the bread taste good. Your starter or dough to which you have added starter rises well and makes bubbles of gas.
You activate the starter by feeding it and keeping it a temperature where it's metabolism will be fast enough to raise the dough but slow enough to have time to make for good taste.
There are lots of methods of achieving this, but, if your starter was not already pretty active, using it 2 hours after a feeding is way too soon. When you mix the starter with the dough, you really want the starter at the peak of its activity, which may be from 4 to 12 or more hours after a feeding.
When I said I activate the starter 2 days before baking, that means I took some healthy starter, but with sleepy yeast and bacteria, out of the refrigerator and fed it at least twice before using it to make bread. Once a starter is at it's peak after a feeding, you can keep for 1-3 days in the refrigerator then warm it up and use it without feeding it again.
I hope this answers your questions.
David
all of your help! I tried to post my pictures of my bread last night , but I can't figure out how to do it.....I made a total of 4 shapes, 2 small boules a baguette (sourdough starter) and a large loaf (batard) as you had originally, mine were not as pretty, the shaping confounds me...practice is what i need....
both were very tasty and delicious! the smell was very nice, I can't really taste the strong rye flavor, but the flavor of the breads was really good! the sourdough starter one was much more acidic, but again both were excellent!! The husband and son loved them and I will be sharing them with friends...thanks again David!
I have one more question (always have too many) to me the texture is slightly gummy......still good and chewy but I would like it more airy...is this because I am not cooking it enough, either hot enough or long enough? and how do I keep it crispy crackly crust??
Hi, mommajack.
I'm so glad you liked it!
As you say, shaping skill comes with practice. I'm still working on it.
The 10% rye in this formula is not meant to give it a "rye flavor." The rye somehow adds a hard-to-describe depth and complexity to the flavor without standing out itself.
If the texture is gummy, either you cut it before it was fully cooled or you didn't bake it long enough.
The crust doesn't stay crisp for more than a few hours. That's normal for almost all breads. (I can't think of an exception right off.) You can re-crisp a loaf by heating in a 375F oven for 7-10 minutes, depending on your taste. If the loaf is already cut, I cover the cut end as tightly as I can with aluminum foil. After re-heating, let the loaf sit for a few (5?) minutes. This works after thawing a frozen loaf too.
David
I love the folding in the bowl technique. Soooo clean!
The one thing I find a real problem with the Bertinet method of mixing is the muck it sticks all over my hands. I can't stand it, and although he says that it comes clean after a while, I can't wait long enough without cleaning my hands off, so I waste half the dough that way. This way, I can pretty much do the same kind of mix, but clean and in the bowl, no mess no waste. I think that the gluten was better developed this way than my normal method of spreading into a baking tin and envelope folding.
I used my home made rounded scraper cut from the lid of an icecream box. Seems to be working fine!
Dough is mixed and folded, and now in the fridge for baking tomorrow.
Lynne
That is the greatest idea, Lynne! I waited months to get a plastic scraper that a friend sent to me from Paris and all that time I could have made one out of an ice cream box. It seems obvious, now, but certainly wasn't. I'm going to try it!
Jane
- it was suggested to me here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5444/plastic-dough-scraper
I was commenting that the teardrop shaped one I had was really too big for my little hands, and was too thick to cut down. I experimented with a thin plastic mat I had, but that was too bendy. Then I was about to throw away the icecream carton when I thought... hmmmmm.. and bingo!
Just like Goldilocks it was not too thick, not too bendy. It was just right. :D
Hi, Lynne.
It is a terrific technique!
I applied it to a pain à l'ancienne (supposedly original formula) dough that is fermenting right now. I'm with you regarding an aversion to sticky dough on my hands. And this technique develops the gluten amazingly well.
I'll be looking for your report tomorrow on the pain de campagne.
David
I love the idea of folding in the bowl, but I can't visualize the stretching. I don't have a scraper (I'll get one), but I can't see how it grips or holds the dough to pull it. Is there a video anywhere or a picture? This may seem dense of me, but I just don't see it.
Thanks.
Marni
PS Your loaves are, as always beautiful and your very complete instructions and descriptions make this a recipe I need to make time for, Thanks!
Hi, Marni.
Some one should make a video of this technique. I don't know of one. Be that as it may, I can't resist a challenge to my ability to describe stuff.
It is best for slack doughs. Most use a flexible plastic scraper, but I have found a rubber spatula to work as well. Remember, we are talking about very sticky doughs. Believe me: getting the dough to stick to the spatula or scraper is not a problem. Getting it unstuck? Well that's another matter.
So, your dough is in a bowl that is large, say 3 times the dough's volume. You insert your scraper between the dough and the bowl at 12 o'clock (assuming you are at 6 o'clock) and stretch the dough your scraper contacts up and over the ball of dough and press it into the dough. If you do this fast, the dough will release the scraper. Maybe some will stick to it.
Turn the bowl 1/5 turn. (I am right-handed and rotate the bowl clockwise.) Insert your scraper between the new portion of dough now at 12 o'clock and do as described above again. Repeat this turn, insert, stretch, press, release maneuver 20 times.
Cover the bowl and set a timer for when you want to repeat this procedure. Generally, this would be between 20 and 60 minutes.
How many times you repeat it depends on the degree of gluten development you want.
I have been doing 3 sets of stretch-and-folds 20 minutes apart for a dough with 75% hydration. I haven't used it with other doughs, so I have no other experience to share yet.
I hope this helps.
David
I was making the dough for baguettes (74% hydration?) for hubby who asked for them as he has to camp out for a few days. The last couple of times that I have used this technique, I actually grab the dough with my thumb of the hand that is holding the spatula or scraper and then I pull the dough up above the center of the dough and then fold it over. The dough stretches and folds just that much more and it didn't stay on my thumb.
Jane
David,
Thank you! I can follow your description perfectly. Now let's see if I can execute it. My problem was I was picturing doing this in the bowl of my mixer which is tall and fairly narrow. Once you pointed out using a very large bowl, somehow it clicked. Also, the large bowl will allow me to try this with one of my wide, handled rubber spatulas instead of waiting to get a scraper.
You really do have a knack with words as well as bread.
Marni
Here it is then. Forgive my lousy photographs, and enjoy the nice grigne!
David, I followed your instructions as far as possible with the following amendments:
1. Rye starter as we discussed earlier. In the UK, the only rye flour I can get is 100% wholemeal stoneground, so quite coarse meal, with a lot of evident bran. I have been thinking this may be why I don't get as good a rise as some breads on here, possibly the gluten strands are being cut whilst mixing?
2. As well as the 100% Rye starter, I still added 30g rye to the flour mix, the rest being Dove Farm Bread Flour. This is a nice organic bread flour, but it should be noted that Dove Farm do add ascorbic acid (vit C) to their bread flour.
3. Not sure that my in bowl folding was stretchy enough, I will try Jane's trick of holding the dough with my thumb when I next try it.
3. I decided to split the dough 2/3rds for the batard, one third for the rustique rolls, but I patted the rolls a bit too thin, I pushed them up at the sides again, but they are still a bit on the flat side. Not their fault! In retrospect, I think that this quantity of dough is probably better for one batard.And my shaping still needs some refining, I don't get enough tension yet with very soft doughs like this one,I would like a bit more loft.
4. Although I resharpened my scalloped knife for cutting the loaf, it caught and wasn't quite deep enough - I recut to the middle but the bread was starting to deflate, so I decided not to try any more. Still got quite a nice ear on it but I would have preferred it to have been a bit longer.
5. No stone, so I preheated a heavy baking tray and baked on parchment on that. I found getting the bread onto the parchment quite tricky - I normally bake directly on a baking tray, and moving from the couche to the peel (upside down baking tray) easier than with the parchment in place.
Otherwise, seems fine! Better spring than I have had before. So I will cut later, and add the crumb in then.
Lynne
David's Pain de Campagne (based on Anis Baguette)
the Grigne on David's Pain de Campagne
David,
OK, it's posted! Took me a good part of the afternoon, so do excuse me for simply using your instructions and translating them. It is the first of a series of rye's I'm going to post.
Lynne,
Nice looking bread. Let us know what your think of the taste and crumb. It can be hard to do the incisions since the dough is rather wet. I use a new cutter blade most of the time, or I have the serrated tomato knife.
I baptised a new ice cream bucket scraper, bendier than the professional ones I have, so very nice for getting dough out of a bowl.
Jane
Thanks, Jane!
I've only been checking your blog for it every couple hours. ;-)
David
Hi Jane, I wonder if we could patent the IceCreamBendyScraper ?
Now.
The two hours is up and the loaf is cut and tasted.
hmmmmm
1. Within two hours the crust has gone from lovely and crunchy to slightly leathery and soft.
2. Although I tested the temperature at 205 degrees, the crumb is slightly gummy.
3. it's soooooo sour!
disappointment. what can I say? Did I underbake? you would think so from the soft crust/gummy innards, but the temperature was right, and the outside looked nice and russetty and crunchy.
The sourness I guess is due to the retardation of the dough. I don't usually retard so my sourdough is not very sour. I like to taste the rye rather than the starter. And an hour after tasting a very slender slice I still have the sour taste in my mouth.
It might be better tomorrow, I have had very sour at the very beginning of my starter that was better the day after baking so maybe not all is lost. And I shall toast the bread so the gumminess /soft crust will matter less. But I really was expecting something nicer.
So. I shall try again next weekend, but not retard, make a bigger loaf rather than one small and some rolls, and bake a bit longer.
and report back again.
And hope that it does improve tomorrow or I have to eat this sour bread for breakfast all week... :(
edit: David - Just looked back at your comments earlier, and noticed that you say that the crust doesn't stay crunchy for long... would you expect it to soften in about 2 hours? Also that gummy can mean not quite cold bread - well, it SEEMED cold, but I will recut later this evening and see. What do you reckon about the sour ?
Yah, the crust doesn't stay crisp for long, but you can heat it up the next day in the oven and it comes back. I really don't care much because it disappears fast and then I toast it the next day anyway.
Gummy crumb... well, it shouldn't be gummy, but if you slice it warm it could be. Patience is the key. But after two hours is should be normal.
Sour taste? That is odd. I hate sour bread, I mean really hate! I have made Peter Reinhart's San Fran sourdough and didn't touch it again after the first bite. So, no, really, it shouldn't be sour. Was your starter in prime condition? What you can do, as I did today, is make the dough early in the morn, put it in the fridge a few hours, so you get the rise, but not the "flavor development" of an all night retardation. Then finish it for the evening meal. It works very well and the sourness won't develop.
Jane
I wouldn't have thought so, but it could be. I have used this before though and not had any sourness like this. But again, it could be just because it is not old enough . Let's see what tomorrow brings.
I always eat my bread toasted in the morning, so that will actually work better with a softer crumb as a very thick crumb is too hard after toasting and has to be cut off anyway. But not so good for a sandwich at lunch.
Lynne
Hi, Lynne.
I was reading about a totally different bread in Hamelman's "Bread" a minute ago, and I came across some advice in a sidebar that might speak to why your bread was too sour. He is talking about the formula for his "66% Sourdough Rye" (page 210):
"The degree of sour flavor can be adjusted by lowering the percentage of rye flour used in the sourdough phase."
His formula calls for all rye flour in the sourdough starter. He is saying, if you want a less sour bread, substitute some wheat flour for rye in the starter, but keep the overall percentages of rye and wheat flours the same in the formula.
In effect, you did the opposite when you made the pain de campagne. You increased the rye in the starter from 0 to 100%, and you got really sour bread.
What do you know? I may have guessed the right answer! Has to happen sometimes, I suppose.
David
Hi, Lynne.
Your bread looks very nice. The scoring will come with a good knife and practice.
I think you under-baked the bread. It doesn't look as dark as I would expect, and the crust got soft faster than I would expect. I would bake a little longer if you make this again (and I hope you do!) and also leave it in the oven with the oven turned off and cracked open a couple of inches for 10 minutes after you think it's fully cooked. This will help dry the crust and keep it crunchy for longer.
You used rye starter. I wonder if that contributed to the sourness. Mine was only very slightly sour. Not sure about this.
Do you have a photo of the crumb to share?
David
Hi David, crumb will follow in the morning.
Underbaking - I did wonder, but 205 degrees should be hot enough in the middle shouldn't it? do you happen to know what temperature you got in your bigger batard?
Lynne
Hi, Lynne.
I don't recall the final temperature, but I'm sure it was between 205F and 210F.
The truth is, I use the 205F as a minimum indication that the loaf is "done." I don't worry about baking it a bit more if the crust should be darker, the bottom or side of the bread is soft, it doesn't sound "right" when I thump the bottom or my intuition tells me to put it back in the oven for another 5 minutes. I really don't worry about over-baking bread.
David
I have to say looking at your breads that yours would be rather on the dark side for me, I like a more "russety" colouring, particularly as I tend to toast most of my bread.
The colour on mine was pretty much my normal colouration, so I suppose I just assumed it would be fine as the temperature was in the right region, and the bread looked good. But it didn't sing....
Lynne
Ok, here is the crumb, you can see it is quite gelatinised, tasted not quite so sour this morning, and toasted nicely. Lots of holes, so my Marmitey butter did tend to drip through a bit :D
Crumb of David's Pain de Campagne
Hi, Lynne.
Actually, your crumb looks wonderful to me. Maybe it just needed to cool a bit more before slicing?
I used to bake my sourdoughs to a lighter-colored crust, which I think is the American style. But I've found I really love the flavor and crunch of the more caramelized, darker crust. Several of my books specifically remark that American bakers are afraid to go for the darker crusts that Europeans prefer. So, I tried going for darker crusts and found I preferred them too. But, each to his own.
However, to get a lighter crust and still fully cook the interior, I would think you would want to bake at a lower temperature but for a longer time.
David
About the color. When I was in the bakery with Anis, one of his apprentices pulled a batch of baguettes out of the oven. They looked fantastic to me! But Anis turned to him and said, Put those back, they aren't baked! When I baked mine, I took them out and they seemed perfect... then I bit in to one. It was fairly dark, but it just wasn't quite baked enough. The next time I baked them til I thought they looked burned and they were perfect! The Mike's Three River should be golden russety, but these baguettes need to be darker. I really don't know why exactly, maybe it's the sourdough (though Anis's weren't sourdough), but that's just how it is.
Jane
thanks Both!
I wonder if it is because of the higher hydration? Perhaps it just takes longer for the inner crumb to dry out? I bake in a gas oven, which I know gets to the right heat, but it is a different kind of heat I understand. I DID remove the steam dish (I use a Le Creuset grill pan set on the floor of the oven) which usually stays in place throughout the baking (although it is dry by no more than half way through)
I shall be trying the recipe again at the weekend, keeping with the overnight retardation, but I shall be trying out my white starter this time. And I will bake darker.
and report in...
the oven"temperature" of normal ovens is an indication (depends on calibration) I learned from a dutch artisan baker:
so in general, baking"time" is the crux: dinner rolls and ficelles must be ready (hollow sounding) in 18-20 minutes, baguettes in 25-30, 800 gr loafs in 40-45 minutes. and so on.
just try a new recipe once and when the bread doesn't sound hollow in the bakingtime mentioned above, bake next time with higher or lower temperature in steps of 5°C but in exactly the same time till the crumb is sound in your opinion.
(of course you should try to rescue your first experiment with a few minutes extra or less but thats an emergency measure)
in second instance you can finetune the time between 18 and 20 minutes (etc)
Hi, keesmes.
That's really interesting. I suppose one would still make adjustments in temperature to achieve a lighter or darker crust, for example.
David
David,
just talking about normal electrical or gas ovens and sound recipes. stone-ovens burned with wood is a more subtile sport.
this is what this professional told me:
the first goal is to get a crumb which is "done". (is "done to a turn" a good english expression for this? the french say: `a point) :
as long there is water in the crumb, the temperature of the crumb will never exceed 100°C. even when your oven is 250°. so: fast little dinner rolls, intermediate baguettes and slow big loafs all have their own bakingtime, depending on weight of the dough to get the crumb "done": maximum 20, 30 or 45 minutes.
when we set both ovens, your and mine, on 220°C, there could be a calibration-difference of 20 degrees and even more. so when taking these baking-times mentioned above as a rule, first fine-tune the temperature to get the dough "done" and the crust intermediate gold-brown.
after fixing the optimal temperature, you can finetune with time to get a thicker and/or darker crust. there is no need for high temperature: if you like, you can get your dinner rolls charcoal-black on 170° too.
kees
Your bread is beautiful! I aspire to have such great looking bread someday!!
So, I have a question about the active starter. (And please be patient if this is obvious, I am new and tend to go by the book at this point.) You said you mixed it with water. Was it a dry starter or did you add a portion of sourdough starter to the water?
EDITED: So after reading the other comments and your responses, I now know this was an active sourdough starter (revived and ready to go). So, I guess I wasn't aware that I should add water to the starter prior to adding the flour. Goodness, learning a new skill is very hard!!
Thank you for the help.
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