Gluten Deterioration During Bulk Using New Flours
Hi,
I am currently having a recurring issue with my dough when I introduce a new flour into my arsenal. My normal daily driver is Shipton Mills Organic White No.4 and my loaves come out really well when this is the vast majority of the flour used (60%+). I can’t get anywhere near the hydration that say Tartine use—I max out at around 79% but I’ve put that down to the flour I’ve chosen, as I only wish to use Organic and english wheat seems to be softer from what I’ve read.
I would like to use a much higher percentage of Stoneground white flour alongside No.4 in my loaves. I’ve tried incorporating both Stoates Organic Stoneground Strong White Flour ********and Shipton Mills Stoneground White separately with no success. Everything seems fine at the beginning, it becomes obvious that they are weaker flours and need more work to develop the gluten but they get there fairly easily and pass the window pane test with flying colours. However as the dough progresses through Bulk something is causing the gluten to break down. This is noticeable even before dividing (at roughly 20-30% increase in volume)—when I cut into the dough it looks like it’s leaking a bit of water and will not build a membrane when very gently pre-shaping. If I do the windowpane test again it fails miserably and tears; sometimes it even looks like it is disintegrating and has a different taste. Strangely it does hold its shape and doesn’t collapse into a puddle as I would have expected, although it does not bake well either—no spring at all—hence I don’t even bother baking them anymore.
I know its not the starter because if I use my everyday flour recipe this doesn’t happen. It could be over hydrated but I’m don’t think i’m pushing the hydration that far as I holding back a few percent on what I normally do and I was under the impression that stoneground flour would take slightly more water with its higher ash content. My immediate gut feeling was that its enzymatic due to the fast deterioration without much rise, even left out overnight it doesn’t inflate any further. I read a little bit about damaged starches but it’s a bit beyond my current knowledge. I do get a reddish crust on a lot of my loaves but thats also true of my loaves that are made with no.4.
Other things to rule out are:
- Bulk temperature is fairly low dough usually sits between 22ºC and 26ºC
Any help would be much appreciated.
Like you, I have found that stoneground white flours in the UK are generally pretty weak and I do think that blending with something stronger is a necessity unless you are happy with bricks.
Lots of bakers use No.4, but I don't find it to be particularly strong as a blending flour. I've been using Asda organic bread flour for a while and I really like it - it's strong and thirsty and well priced - a bit of a hidden gem, in my opinion. I'm not sure who mills it.
With regards to stoneground white, there is one flour that seems to buck the weakness trend and that is Wildfarmed; they do a T65 and a T80 and they are surprisingly strong.
You don't say anything about your starter, but for maximum strength I would use a stiff starter (mine is 50% hydration, but that will only work if you machine mix)) made with strong bread flour and use a good percentage of levain in your mix.
Lance
Thanks for your reply and tips Lance, glad to hear that I'm not alone.
I use a 100% hydration starter that triples the majority of the time. I mix everything by hand. When you say 'it will only work if you machine mix are you on about mixing the starter or mixing the dough? What sort of percentage are you suggesting—I usually use 15% of total flour. I've just started treating the levain as an ingredient rather than as part of the flour and water and reduced the hydration to compensate.
I was referring to mixing in the levain; if the levain is 50% hydration, then hand mixing it in to the dough will be very tedious - better to go for a 60% hydration starter/lev.
Abe makes a good point about autolyse - keep this to a minimum, eg 20 mins max, as long autolyse degrades dough.
Regarding levain percentgage, my approach would differ and for best dough strength I would use a large percentage of stiff levain, eg a lev % of 25-30% of final dough flour - typical of classic French recipes where they were dealing with weak homegrown wheat flour.
Levain flour and water should always be considered as part of the total dough ingredients to give a true hydration figure.
Lance
Thanks Lance, yes currently only doing a 20 min autolyse and using a very young levain but I might give your 60% levain a go. I popped in to Asda today but they don't do the organic one at my local store.
Hydration in a recipe is the most changeable. More so than other ingredients in a recipe. Go by feel and what results you're after. You can achieve a more open crumb with some flours at a lower hydration than other flours. When trying a new flour always err on the low side and hold some water back. You can add more water after forming the final dough and aim for a tacky feel to the dough. See what the results are and adjust accordingly next time. If a flour is weak then there are other things that you can do. Using a low hydration starter as Lance has said. Adding salt in from the start, when forming the dough, and not doing an autolyse. Going for a low inoculation and long ferment with minimal handling like a no knead bread. Yohan Ferrant's "Do Nothing Bread" is ideal for weaker flours. In fact I think it was made with weaker flours in mind. I use UK flours and haven't had an issue but then again my approach is different to yours.
I totally agree Abe and don't dispute that—perhaps I've worded my question wrong—what I'm actually curious about is what is happening to the dough that causes it the gluten to break down during bulk with these other flours. As mentioned, that dough accepts the lets say 75% hydration and doesn't feel bad in the hand or tacky as you put it and forms a nice window pane but then only a few hours later disintegrates without being overproofed.
The only other article I've been able to find is the one below that comes anywhere close
https://groups.io/g/BBGAorg/topic/why_is_dough_releasing_water/75858486?p=
My best guess—and very much a guess it is—is that something happens maybe like above, that causes the release of the previously happily stored water—I am very gentle in all my processes including folds—that then ferments at a different rate to yeast and breaks down the gluten as food. Any Ideas?
Gluten, as we know it, breaks down and that makes it consumable. Enjoy!
Trevor Wilson posted about proteolytic attack on dough, which sounds more or less on target - https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/374151#comment-374151
Aside from an overly acidic starter, there are enzymes that also attack the protein. Some wheats, or some growing seasons, may cause flour that contains more of them or is more susceptible to them.
Generally speaking, as best I know, if dough becomes unable to maintain its shape or to rise, it's a sign of too long a fermentation *for that flour, starter, and hydration level* or too acidic an environment (likely also caused by the starter).
In contrast, rye flour tends to contain so much amylase, which attacks the rye's starch, that it starts to break down during baking, and you need an acidic dough to prevent that. But this breakdown is not a case of attack on the protein.
TomP