Kamikaze bread anyone?
In search of a recipe for a rye bread that would be full of flavor and aroma I came across the ones that, instead of a room temperature sourdough starter, start with what is known as Sauerteig Typ II in Germany or KMKZ in Russia. The idea was to get rid of or minimze the amount of acetic acid in the dough, which might dominate or kill off all other flavors.
These are very similar to regular starters except that they are developed and maintained at higher temperatures and contain only lactic acid producing LAB and no yeast. I use 105-109°F for my KMKZ "kamikaze" starter made with the procedure described here. The recipe for this 80% dark rye / 20% whole wheat involves scald, preferment, and final dough and comes from here, hydration is about 70%.
The bread is really delicious: sweet fruity and buttery aroma, complex flavor, and pleasant aftertaste without bitterness and acidity. Next time will extend bulk fermentation or lower the temperature of prefement from 85 to 80°F in an attempt to make it a bit more sour by building a bit of the acetic acid. This is interesting because even though mother KMKZ tastes super-sour the bread has very little acidity, which is further masked by the added sugars.
I'm a huge fan of Rus's bread. Glad to see another baker on the forum who also enjoys his recipe.
Yippee
P.S. What kind of bread tin did you use to bake this loaf?
It's similar to what Rus Brot uses in his videos on rye loaves, a thick wall quart size bread form made of aluminum alloy. I've only got one as a present and wish I had three more.
Yes, his is a great resource. I'm grateful for his time and patience in answering my dumb questions! To be honest it's a bit surprising to see that the majority of home rye bread bakers are satisfied with recipes based on a room temperature, mesophilic starter. Isn't the taste quite bland and dominated by acetic acid? I'm lucky to have found a local bakery making a tasty high percentage rye bread made on a dedicated ("million-dollar" as they call it in the bakery) production line imported from ... France and made with a "special" sourdough starter. ? So much for all those artisanal bakeries!
is the most finicky starter I've ever made! It took me several times to get it right! The thing is, if people don't know what they don't know, they won't feel like missing out on anything. Rus has introduced new techniques, delicious and authentic recipes, and a different perspective on breadmaking to me. I respect him for his expertise, and above all, his generosity in sharing his knowledge of bread.
I was hoping that you'd tell me where to get one of those bread tins. Lucky you! I want it so bad that even one would make me happy!
Yippee
Sorry, yes, they seem to be available only from russian online stores. If demand for these forms is high enough here among the loafers (or is there a better name?), would a consolidated order/shipment be a solution? Has it been done before?
from here--picked the largest size. Is the size comparable to yours? I also found similar pans on eBay, but 40+$ per pan is too much.
The tins in your link might be of different type. They seem to be made of pressed aluminum, much like the Nordic Ware brand. The aluminum sheet is folded on itself at the rim in the photo.
The one I've got is something like this: labeled no.6, about 1/4" thick walls, 9-1/4" x 4-1/2" x 4-1/2", more importantly, it's cast, not pressed. I guess they are only manufactured in Russia as they have been a state standard for nearly a century or so.
So, I do not expect much from the purchase I made today. Yours looks much more sturdy for sure.
Just curious, what is it you are looking for in a tin? What's so special about the ones you are looking for?
My bread won't turn out exactly like Rus's.???
Hi Yippee,
Would this be what you want? maufactured by Russian fed. $20.95 FREE DELIVERY!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125203899241?hash=item1d26bbe369:g:vHQAAOSw1rJiML5P&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8ANTP1rda81HxYueIOsNB6WFpiNmwhbksTdR0Na5kaqBgwTlq8%2...
I just bought 2 Chicago Metallic pan (%5.99 at Grocery Outlet) that are heavy (but folded aluminum, slightly trapezoidal cross section). I will like the height -only 2.75" but with rising I will be be able to get 3.25" on Borodinsky. I'm on my 3rd try this week! almost there!
Hi Yippee,
Someone remarked to me about flavors that are in the KMKZ breads (100% ww) just like what you said above i.e. "if you don't know what you don't know, you won't miss it". It is so nice to get the advantages of clas family breads so easily! ... and in the Zoji, no less :) What a bonus!
Very nice bake. I'm familiar with CLAS but Thermolific and Mesophilic starters are normally terms used in cheese making.
CLAS is basically sourdough starter minus the yeast and it's used as way to make sourdough in extra fast time but the bacteria in traditional sourdough starters are the very same. It takes longer as yeast is also being cultivated which also means having to do so at lower temperatures. However the bacteria in sourdough starters are lactic acid producing bacteria!
The purpose is not for a different kind of flavour one cannot get from a sourdough starter but rather for speed. In other words it's a sourdough starter put together by adding bacteria from the CLAS and bakers yeast instead of cultivating a starter from flour and water over time. It is perfectly possible to cultivate a sourdough starter to be lactic acid, acetic acid, more tang or less tang, mild or strong etc but that is down to the skill of the baker.
In search of a "kamikaze" bread with a little bit of acidity tried this recipe. I followed the recipe except that reduced the sugar and molasses 1.5x, increased the salt 1.5x, added 100g more water to the dough by mistake and therefore had to add 140g more flour (90g ww, 50g whole rye) and autolysed the 150g of ww flour from the dough step.
For some reason, this bread is not sour at all, even though the "kamikaze" starter was quite acidic. The bread has just a hint of acidity, most of which has to be from the lactic acid, otherwise, it's full of aroma and flavor, very much like bread from real rye bread bakeries. My high percentage rye breads made with a regular room temperature sourdough starter compared in the appearance and crumb but never in the taste, which was pretty bland, not sure why.
Probably, because the commercial pressed yeast do a better job of flavoring the dough compared to the yeast strains in the spontaneous sourdough starter or because certain LABs and the acetic acid are missing in "kamikaze" starter.
A trick from this recipe I hadn't known before was not to worry about preserving the air bubbles in the risen dough during shaping -- just run the dough in the mixer for a few seconds to completely deflate it, transfer the sticky mess in the bread forms, press it down, then smooth the top with a wet spatula.
Hi,
I missed seeing your posts until now on rusbrot bakes. I am trying them too since
Yippee has brought them to the forefront in her work.
Here is another article from Livejournal that you cited above.
https://registrr-livejournal-com.translate.goog/94799.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en
My first attempt at Borodinsky had very good spicy flavor but it needs (a lot of) crumb improvement!
What else will you be trying?
Here is a simple 70% rye bread made with LAB-only sourdough starter. I copied this recipe except that increased the hydration by about 5%, used more salt and less molasses. Even without herb and spices this bread is full of fruity and buttery taste and aroma, some of which might come from the molasses, has neither acidity to distract you from the taste, nor funny aftertastes. Have never been really satisfied with my RT sourdough starter ryes, wondering if a starter grown and maintained at 85°F instead of RT would make a difference.
While, apparently, there's no acetic acid in the dough and not much sour taste, this bread keeps well at RT for at least a week -- no mold or anything like that.
This was about the same recipe as the most recent loaf except that hydration wasn't much outside the suggested range. With proper hydration and a better temperature control during the mixings/fermentations that band of denser and darker crumb right next to the form is almost gone.
70% whole rye
25% high extraction bread wheat
5% first clear
75% hydration
The mahogany color is very charming!
Thank you, Yippee! The bread matches well with what the family calls Andrew salad: lettuce, Fuyu persimmons, pomegranate seeds dressed with vinaigrette (olive oil, balsamic vinegar, French mustard, honey, garlic, pepper, salt).
???
That looks delicious! I will have to read more on your baking notes.
Is clear flour essential?
The salad is a perfect blend!!
What is "kamizake" 神風 bread even supposed to be?
Hi,
You may refer to rusbrot website and Youtubes to read about his explanation of
Concentrated Lactic Acid (bacteria) Sourdough. I really enjoy this sourdough method!!
CLAS=Russian KMKZ. I don't believe it has an inference from history. :)
Does your name "Edo" represent a bakery? I often think that the local bakeries in USA could offer a wonderful soft 100% lean whole wheat bread if they used his recipe.
I think the OP was sounding out the letters of the Russian KMKZ: KaMiKaZe.
Yes I see that from the other answer to me. I had not see those letters in earlier posts. Not a name I would use for any bread I produce.