July 18, 2017 - 11:17am
Sourdough starter
So I have been making my own sourdough for about 2 years now. I use rye flour for my mother starter and then bread flour for building when I want to make a loaf. My mother starter is super healthy, active and doubles great but for some reason I can't get my starter to double when I want to make bread. It bubbles nicely and has a good source smell. The room temperature is perfect and I've never had this issue before. Now I can't get it ready for baking to save my life. Any tips are so welcome thank you.
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Tell us how you build your levain.
Oh I apologize. I thought for sure I said that. I start work 14 grams of the mother and add 80 grams of flour with 102 grams of filtered water.
So you have been doing as described for years without a problem? If so have you changed anything at all? I have only built a lavain using 50g Rye starter, 50g wheat flour and 50g water without issues. Maybe dabrownman will chime in.
I honestly haven't changed a single thing. I can get it to raise about half an inch but not enough. I've been building it for about a week. This is my second try because I assumed something went wrong last time. Still nothing. My flour is fresh and the starter is nice and frothy just bit doubling.
14g starter + 80g water + 102g flour
I will try that when I feed next thank you. Do you know why that would make a difference? I'm just trying to learn as much as I can.
Nothing wrong with your starter and just because it doesn't double it doesn't mean it can't leaven bread. It is a good indicator though but yours hasn't doubled because it's overly hydrated. It can't hold the gas in. But as you can see its still healthy as it makes bread. If your starter was lower hydration, fed well and still doesn't rise then I'd be concerned. Otherwise just make it thicker. See what happens.
OK I think I will use this to make bread today and see how it comes out and start a new one for a few days at a lower hydration. I got the recipe from a guy on here a few years ago and never really branched out. Thank you...!!!
Let us know how it works out. So many ways to maintain and use a starter. If you don't already why not try building different Levains for different recipes. See what each build brings to the recipe. You can also manipulate flavour with flour and hydration.
I basically learned one recipe and ran with that. I really need to get some more. The internet has always steered me wrong so maybe I will look for a good book. I did make a loaf last week with garlic, actually I made one plain and one garlic, the garlic came out beautiful however my plain failed. I'm pretty sure I just didn't have enough levain for both. I'm making the same now so I will let you all know!
If you didn't have enough Levain for both and fell short with the plain one then you could have extended the time.
Some great books out there. Difficult to advise just one but I think you'll like Hamelman's "Bread". Funnily enough though he does use high hydration starter/Levain very much how you've been keeping yours. When I build a levain from his recipe I get a lovely frothy starter but not as much rise. More difficult to read when ready in my opinion so I use his timings as a guide of course even though one must watch the starter and dough and not the clock.
That's one thing I've learned. I use instructions more as a guideline because it's always different each time. I will have to look into that book thank you. I didn't know I could extend time!!! I was always under the assumption to long would cause the bread to fall. I guess I will have so much to learn.
and how warm it is. Less starter = more time, Warmer = less time. So increase or decrease as necessary. Most importantly is to learn to read when final proofing is done. Yes any dough left too long it'll over proof / ferment. Watching the dough and not the clock is the most important lesson. I'm not quite there myself. Always more to learn. But trying out many recipes helps.
Check out this thread from a while back. Scroll down to Mini Oven's comments regarding specifically how to build up a stronger population of yeast in your starter.
hi Kristina,
regardless of the activity that you get from your starter, you are building a ~125% hydration bread flour levain (SD) for your mix. What you are seeing is totally normal. At the 8-12 hour mark, assuming a warm-ish kitchen, what you should see is a very modest growth with a lot of small frothy bubbles at the top. Don't be led to believe that all levains operate the same way. They don't. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. So, if this is what you have a recipe for, then try using it. You can always make a levain with more or less hydration if you wish. Just ensure that you modify the remainder of your flour and water to reflect this.
This is the 'standard' levain that is often used in Mr. Hamelman's recipes. He of King Arthur fame.
Alan
You guys are all amazing. I tried using my levain today and followed my instructions but my bread failed to rise in the oven. It's good with good flavor but extremely dense. I have another starter that is beautiful but hasn't risen yet either. I'm starting to lose faith in myself, maybe I need a new recipe. I think I'm going to feed my starter and try again tomorrow.
Fed... 4 hours in... 6 hours in... until it peaks.
If your starter/levain isn't showing strength and has slowed down then don't be in a hurry to feed it. Keep it warm and stir for now. See if it wakes up and gathers strength. Perhaps your ratio of bacteria to yeasts is off balance. Good feeds and waiting for it to peak before the next feed helps to increase the yeasts in your starter. Wait another few hours and see what happens.
it alone except for an occasional stir. Wait for it, the rise, the yeasty aromas. I know a water treatment zapped mine once, maybe twice. Give the starter time to recoup and in the meanwhile boil up some water or just stand some in a pitcher somewhere for a day before using.
I actually boil my water and let it get warm to room temp before using. I fed it last night around 1am... It's now 5pm and it's got good bubbles but hasn't risen. Should I feed again tonight or allow it to be? I've never heard of stirring it. That won't damage it??
like giving them fresh food. Damage it? or them? no. not at all. They will love you for it. And it gives you the chance to take in the starter aroma as you stir and break a few gas bubbles. Love that! See how far you can stir and still get bubbles re-forming in the starter. Get it good and ripe and then wait a few hours before removing about 20g and feeding sometime... in the future.
If you are still feeding for a wet starter, the bubbles should be rising and mostly popping on the surface as they form. A thicker starter will form bubbles between the starter and glass jar and push up the starter mass or raise it until the fermentation and enzymes take their toll and deteriorate the starter. This ripe starter should still raise dough if the yeast count is high. What you should know is that bacteria also make gas. Yeast will make it tingle in your mouth like soda pop.
So the question is... is the gas bacterial, yeasty, or a bit of both. Sometimes it helps to walk away from the starter and clear your nose with fresh air and then return to the starter and describe it as you lift the cover. You can also taste the starter for "sourness" which can be very helpful.
Well I just gave it a good stir.. It's got a slight sour smell but still smells like fresh flour to me. It's almost like a vinegar sour milk smell. I'm trying to figure out how to upload a photo from the phone so it will be easier for you to see
or wet flour smell is there, let it just ferment. keeps notes on what is done and what is happening. photos are great because you can go back and compare colour, and bubbles as it perks along.
Don't experiment and play with all of the starter, keep the refrigerated one as backup in case this one goes wonky.
And stop watching the clock for feeding right now, watch the starter. Get your starter "zen" going... Hmmmmm
I have a beautiful rye mother starter in my fridge. I just take out I need when I want to make bread.
So tell me about the mother. How you maintain it etc. Let's study it for a little while while it sits in the fridge.
I usually take about 10 grams out of each time I want to make bread. Otherwise I leave it be and feed it about one a week or every other week. I use boiled water that I allow to cool and organic rye flour. I generally only feed it 45 grams of water and 45 of flour unless it's really low.
you are located (state or provence is enough) but I'm in Laos and it is currently 8:23 am in the morning. Be sure to include the room temp, and fridge temp if you know it.
to ferment before putting it back into the fridge after feeding?
About 2 to 4 hours. My kitchen is an average of 68 degrees but when building a starter for bread I generally keep it in my room which is about 72.
what's going on. And this happens often enough, esp. with cool kitchens. What has happened is that the yeast hasn't been fermenting long enough before chilling. I bet it works best after the mother is about a week old.
What you can do is wait for the mother to start rising and showing other signs of yeast fermentation before tucking into the fridge. Also before feeding it, let it stand and get warmed up and very fermented before feeding it. Better to err on the side of over-fermenting than under fermenting as with time this will deplete the yeast population. Then when you remove only 10g to build for bread it may take twice as long or longer to get the starter to raise a loaf.
The plan should you want to try it:
Take out half the mother starter (saving half for back up) and let it simply warm up and ferment around 75 to 78°F until it is very ripe. This will take any number of hours depending on when it was last fed and how long it's been in the refrigerator.
Once good and ripe feed it the normal feeding you do for the mother (45g each flour and water) but use 20g instead of 10g and let the starter peak. Wait until it stops rising, dents in the middle and starts to fall. Stir it and let it rise again for a second peak without feeding it. Then remove 20g and feed. (Set the discard aside and use it for the next loaf tossing it in with more yeast or starter to assure a rise.)
When this feeding has risen about half of double, put it into the fridge or go about another round of rising and feeding to get a stronger population. Add the discard to the other chilled discard and make a loaf and toss in some yeast for a fast loaf. When the mother is half risen, put it into the fridge and remove spoonfuls as before.
Another option is once the mother is half risen, mix in a few spoonfuls of flour to thicken and then chill. Wait about 4 days few days before using and then feed every 3 to 4 weeks. It isn't always necessary to feed weekly when the starter is chilled and only partially risen.
The other starter or build sitting out will also eventually rise and get stronger and can be used. Might want to race it against the mother starter just for kicks. :)
I am going to try this. I know I allowed my mother to just about die last month. Took me a little over a week to get good activity out of it. Maybe that's where I went wrong. I got about half an inch rise out of the starter after I stirred it yesterday. I'm going to feed it again and hope for the best!
you will want to feed at peak activity for several consecutive feeds. Try not to outpace the culture with too big a feed but gradually increase the flour amount as the population concentration increases.
For rye cultures it is important that they ferment more toward over-fermented than under-fermented. For rises after 8 hours of fermenting it is better to not count rising as a factor as a pure rye matrix is very weak and most likely fallen apart. Then you have to rely on consistency (they thin as they ferment) colour (get lighter) aroma (become more pungent) taste and the size of craters popping on top of the starter.
Rye starters are very resilient if allowed to fully ferment once in a while, a little neglect seems to do them more good than harm and they can protect themselves better when the pH is low or they contain more acid. Firm Rye starters will also get stiffer in the refrigerator than wheat starters and tend to crack to release gas build up. In this way only a small jar is needed as compared to a wheat starter which may require 4 or 5 times its volume for headspace.
I just spent the last few days slow feeding a new levain. It raised double in size for the first two feedings and then slowly declined. I fed it last night and it only raised about half an inch. Maybe I'm not discarding enough when I feed it? I'm using organic bread flour and slowly washing out the rye. I've never had this issue and I'm getting extremely frustrated.
Stop feeding for now, keep warm and stir every so often. When you see more signs of life then begin feeding again. Might even take two or three days. Be patient.
No it's just a levain build from my mother starter. I've had the mother over two years and it's extremely healthy and fast rising. I just can't seem to build a levain from it.
Then building a levain should be fine. After all a levain build is just a starter feed.
So what have you done exactly so far.
First I started with 2 tablespoons of my mother starter and added 40 grams of water and 60 grams of flour. It doubled over night. I did the same thing in the morning without discarding any and it almost doubled.
And don't forget that if you fed it the same amount on both occasions then the second feed is a half feed. Unless you discarded all but two tablespoons for the second feed as well.
If I discard too much it won't rise at all. And when I make bread it comes out very dense and flat.
Two tablespoons starter had no issue raising 60g flour + 40g water.
Try this...
1 tablespoon starter + 80g water + 100g flour.
Leave in a warm place and allow to peak. When it begins to flatten out after peaking then feed again...
1 tablespoon from above + 80g water + 100g flour
Allow to peak then once it just begins to flatten out (it should smell good too) then use in a recipe.
These big feeds with allowing it to peak each time should build up yeast and strength.
In the meantime find a recipe you wish to try.
I will start it tonight and let you know how it goes. I have one recipe that I've been using for the last 2 years. Seems pretty good, I really want to try new ones just haven't found any yet.
Try this recipe and build the poolish (a misnomer in the recipe - it's a levain build) with 15g starter from the second build.
http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/sourdough-pain-naturel/
It has a high percentage levain in the recipe. Lovely bread too.
into the mother feeds. ...and a little rye into the levain feeds. Not too much but just enough to satisfy some of the picky eaters.
I couldn't have said it better above. :)