Hokkaido or Asian Style Pain de Mie?
When Floyd posted his Hokkaido Milk Bread I just had to try it. Finally I got to it, and tasted it and then thought, I've made this before, even though I knew I'd never made a bread called Hokkaido bread. I went back to the databanks and found that a year and a half ago, I made Syd's Asian Style Pain de Mie, which is what I had been thinking of. I must have had some sort of trauma interference with my memory as at the time my Kitchen Aid was not up to the task of intensive kneading, so I did it by hand which was a bigger workout than I had bargained for. Fortunately, now I have upgraded to a tiny little Bosch which is much more suited to the task. That freed me up to bake both of these breads.
So being somewhat anal...ytical, I decided to bake them side by side and see how similar they really are. First the formulas:
Syd's scaled to | 472 g | Floyd's scaled to | 472 | ||||||||
factor | 0.2 | 0.3 | |||||||||
Final | Biga | Tang Zhang | Total | B % | Final | Tang Zhang | Total | ` | |||
AP Flour | 67 | 157 | 16 | 240 | AP Flour | 222 | 15 | 236 | |||
Sugar | 27 | 4 | 0.7 | 32 | 13% | Sugar | 31 | 31 | 13% | ||
Milk | 22 | 97 | 16 | 135 | 56% | Milk | 79 | 73 | 153 | 65% | |
Eggs | 31 | 31 | 13% | Eggs | 28 | 28 | 12% | ||||
Butter | 22 | 7 | 29 | 12% | Butter | 15 | 15 | 6% | |||
Yeast | 1 | 0.4 | 2 | 0.7% | Yeast | 4 | 4 | 1.6% | |||
Salt | 3 | 0.2 | 3 | 1.2% | Salt | 5 | 5 | 2.0% | |||
472 | 472 | ||||||||||
Quite similar. What the Pain de Mie lacks in hydration it makes up for in butter, and so forth.
These formulas reflect two changes I made in the Hokkaido bread - for all the milk products listed in Floyd's formula, I used milk, as well as all the liquid in the Tangzhong. Also I upped the salt to 2% which I meant to undo today, but which I forgot to undo.
While the ingredients are the same, and percents at least similar, the methods are quite different. Syd's is made over a four day period - first the tangzhong, then a biga like thing, then final dough. Floyd's on the other hand is made all in one shot. Also the tangzhong ingredients and procedures are different. I followed each of the methods as written.
The doughs handled fairly differently. The Pain de Mie after around 10 minutes of pounding at high speed, came together in a tight ball. The Hokkaido bread took a longer beating and while it window paned beautifully, it still remained somewhat slack and sticky. At shaping, they also handled somewhat differently, with the Hokkaido being more airy and light, and the Pain de Mie more easy to manage.
Now the crumb (or should I say the mie.)
First Hokkaido:
Now the Pain de Mie:
Similar yes?
And now the question - are they shreddably soft?
Yes - I think so.
First Hokkaido:
Now Pain de Mie:
And finally - the taste:
They are very similar. However there are subtle differences: The best distinction I can come up with is the Pain de Mie is smooth and creamy, while the Hokkaido is a bit sharper. Both are really delicious.
So going forward, which version would I make? If I remember my four day window, I'd go with the Pain de Mie simply to get that extra smooth and cream texture. If I forgot the window, I'd make the Hokkaido.
And that's that.
Comments
to see them baked together and how similar they are adn turned out. What a nice experiment and you baked each perfectly too.Very Nice baking indeed!
Lucy made her first shot at Tzitzel today and fo never tasting it like we have she did pretty good for a first go at it.
But if you were reading email or whatever while eating you wouldn't realize there was any difference at all. Not nearly as much difference as between your Tzitzel with its toadies and rye malt and the Pratzel's original. Thanks DA. -Varda
interesting.. good to know. thanks Varda.
evon
Syd was working from the recipe of a Chinese blogger whose write-up unfortunately I couldn't read. And he got it from... and so forth. -Varda
Those ar some beauties Varda.
Thanks for sharing your experiment. Quite a change from the heavy dark ryes and a nice change of pace.
Regards
Ian
Ian, I think you mean hearty and healthy. As for these - more like cotton candy. But who doesn't like cotton candy? Thanks for your comments. -Varda
You are right....I think I was thinking of myself who keeps eating too much bread :)
Is there some kind of Tangzhong festival on TFL? Maybe Floyd can start having theme weeks :).
Both breads look great. Pain de Mei is the bread made most often in my house as my children demand it. So I play around a lot with it (more out of my apathy to repeat same breads) but I have yet to make one with biga. This is next in queue.
Tangzhong sweeps the web! Well my kids love it as well, and by that I mean my husband and son. Nothing like eggs, sugar, and butter to get people to eat their bread. Yum! Thanks Alpana. -Varda
Quite interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Floyd. -Varda
Nice! both are so nice, varda! Smooth, rich, and very soft, YUM.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
-Khalid
Khalid, Breads like this go fast. Can't make them too often though. Got to get back to the whole grains! Thanks! -Varda
Thanks for the side by slide of the two breads. Both look great!
These are truly carblicious (love your name.) -Varda
Hi Varda,
Glad you did this so I didn't have to! I remember doing the PdeM last year inspired by your bake but I used my DLX to mix so I wasn't as traumatized by the process :- ).
I would imagine that the PdeM was easier to handle due to the greater absorption of the flour due to all the down time in that formula. I know that my doughs are a lot easier to handle after a long night in the refrig. then if they are mixed and baked all in a few short hours.
My daughter loved this loaf so maybe I will have to revisit it but the one down fall was that it uses IY and, despite the roux, the crumb does dry out faster than a sd version in our climate. (We are talking dry, dry, dry.....except for the past month and a half...exceptions prevail).
Thanks for taking the time to post your results.
Take Care,
Janet
when I'm overflowing with dough around here, but for many kinds of dough it's useless and for this type of dough completely worthless. Wish I'd figured that out earlier, It was fun to make this bread without having to get a gym membership first. Thanks for commenting. -Varda
I think Janet is spot on about all the retarding in the pain de mie formula contributing to better handling. It also seems to have a less holey crumb. Big holes in bread are not a desirable trait here in the East (except of course if you are baking European/Western breads). A delicate, fine, even crumb are sought after: as is a thin, soft crust.
Nice experimenting,
Syd
Syd, Today I'm out of experimental mode and making two large loaves of this. So would you call the ASPDM Hokkaido bread? I see where you are coming from re holes or no holes. This bread is so smooth and silky - holes just mess up the texture. Thanks for your comments. -Varda
Okay, now with all this talk about the ASPDM and my son complaining about how much firmer my 100% whole grain breads are I find I am being beckoned/forced to begin the 3 day odyssey with Syd's formula once again to see if I can convince my son that I can indeed make a really soft, soft loaf with my grains. I will mix the roux late tonight...
Thanks for the nudge :-)
And a side note. I baked up 3 challahs today using your formula but converting it to my whole grains. I am pleased with the results - especially with the one loaf that I baked in my newly installed Electrolux that lets me bake with or without convection. Made a big difference in the crust. I was very pleased. Even more pleased that I could navigate all the electronics on the key pad to get the oven to do what I wanted it to do!
Thanks for that inspiration too!
Take Care,
Janet
So you are making this with whole wheat? I can't imagine it. Can you tell me exactly what you do? I'd like to try it. Good luck! -Varda
I simply follow Syd's formula but substitute my hard white whole wheat flour - not sifted....for all the flour. This loaf I am going to use Kamut for the final flour addition and see how that turns out. Figure it will be okay since it will be a panned loaf.
I just did the roux and did add a bit extra milk to compensate for the ww being thirstier than BF or AP.
I also use honey instead of sugar. Same proportion.
If things feel to dry I do add more milk until it gets the right feel.
I also don't mix by hand. I tried that the first time I baked this and it was not fun....I use the roller on my DLX and it comes out really nicely.
I try to stick to the times he has set but I know he even 'cheated' on that so I adjust so it fits into my schedule....Like no mixing the second days dough at 2 A.M. *- }
I am sure it isn't as soft as when BF or AP flour are used but it does turn out to be really soft. My daughter loves it.
I using the IY for this loaf. Did it once with WY but used txfarmer's formula and it turned out nicely too but different than the IY one - for obvious reasons....
I will keep you posted.
Janet
maybe with BRM pastry flour which is soft white wheat. Hmmm. Thanks. -Varda
Hi Varda,
I wouldn't use pastry flour. I don't think it will have the strength to rise and be soft. You might end up with a pound cake kind of consistency....but I don't know as I haven't tried baking a loaf of bread with all soft wheat....yet. When I use it I keep it at about 10% and usually with formulas that I make into rolls. If you do try it let me know. It might turn out great.
Here are the #'s I go by with my ww: (I use hard white spring whole wheat)
Day 1
Flour 6.5%
Milk 12%
Butter 2.8%
Honey .19%
Salt .09%
Day 2
Flour 65%
Milk 52%
Honey 1.9%
IY .09%
(Day 2 has more liquid in it but it firms up as it sits. I adjust for texture on Day 3)
Day 3
Flour 37% (This loaf I am going to use Kamut for this portion of the flour.)
Milk 4.3% - 9% (I adjust here as necessary.)
Honey 3.7%
Eggs 13%
Salt 1.1%
Non Diastatic Malt 3.7%
Butter 3.6%
IY .56% (I decreased the IY due to fresh grains.)
I should mention that these are the #'s I used last, last winter when I first made this loaf. I have only done it 2x's so I might have to adjust more in the final dough still so I will let you know how this all turns out. I figure day 3 will be on Monday since I just mixed up day 2 a little while ago. Felt wetter than I recall so I will be curious to how it firms up before Monday...
Janet
May 16 update: I just adjusted IY and liquid in day 2.
Hi Janet, Thanks so much for posting. I will try this as soon as I get a chance. I guess I'll buy a bag of white whole wheat for the purpose. Why add the malt? -Varda
I use nd malt in some of my loaves as part of the sweetener % just because I like to...a bit of a malty flavor...
So if you don't want to use it just add the % to the honey or sugar - which ever you use. Syd's formula uses sugar and I always use honey, agave or nd malt.
Why not mill your own wheat for the loaf since you have the mill? Or do you mean you will buy a bag of white ww berries? I am sure you could do it with red ww too. I just use www for most of my loaves because the family prefers it's flavor over the red for sandwich type loaves.
Janet
Thanks Janet. I still have around 10 pounds left of red wheat berries from the 50 pound sack I bought in western mass in the fall. No white wheat berries handy. There is a supermarket nearby that carries KA white wheat. So I may try that. -Varda
Baked the loaf today and I need to make adjustments. The final dough was sticky - too much of the NDM. It was also way too extensible which, I am thinking, came from the Kamut. The loaf did rise but didn't dome as it should have. Came out looking like I had baked it with the lid on the pan which was fine because it went to a friend who I make sandwich loaves for so the shape suited him just fine.
I began again today. I have adjusted liquid down a bit as well as the IY on day 2. Seemed like it fermented a bit tooo much. I am also not going to use NDM and all the flour will be hard white ww. Will see if that makes any difference.
If you have already started with the #'s I listed above - just adjust the liquid. You know how how stiff the dough should be so I figure you have that to go from....
I will keep you posted.
Janet
Hi Janet, Don't have time to make it this week. So I can learn from all your experiences. Thanks. -Varda
Good, because the #'s above are very wrong and I realized the mistake I made today when mixing up day 2. Flour etc was all based on total flour for day 1 and final but on day 2 I somehow got different #'s going...Was well over a year ago that I first made this and baking math was in it's infancy in my notes.
Will clean it all up once this loaf is done and let you know more accurate info. OR I may never attempt this loaf again
:- O
Report in #3
Well, this loaf was still more sticky than I remember. I lowered my previous hydration by about 10-15% and I used the compact and kneaded like crazy. I even used the whisk attachment since I cut the dough amt. in half the hook had a hard time engaging with the dough. It just clung to the side of the bowl. I kneaded for 15 minutes on 4 and then let the dough rest for 15 minutes. Did another 15 mix and rest. Repeated maybe 3 times total and I did add 50g more flour simply because the dough was soo loose.
After mixing in the compact I still did S&Fs for about and hour to tighten up the dough and to allow the newer flour to hydrate a bit more.
I think this one might have held it's shape had I used my Pullman pan but I didn't want a huge loaf so I ended up too little dough for the Pullman or my regular loaf pan. The pan I did use wasn't big enough so it kinda expanded over the edge when it proofed but did rise up when baked. Just has a bit of a mushroom look on top :)
I think the extended kneading did make a difference so thanks for your mentioning how long you kneaded and on what speed....I have never gone above 2nd speed when kneading dough so this was a new adventure :O. I couldn't walk away since the mixer was bouncing around at that speed....
Loaf goes to a friend tomorrow but it feels nice and light.
Now on to a 30% rye loaf...
Take Care,
Janet
Janet, Did you use the same formula as me other than the hydration changes and white whole wheat? No picture? Hope your friend likes it. Sounds like it came out very well. I want to go back to it. Would love to get a bit taller of a loft, but not sure what changes to make. -Varda
Almost like yours but adjusted for 100%ww and I used honey.
Here is what it looked: Flour 250g
DAY 1
Milk 9%
Butter 2.8%
Honey .3%
Salt .09%
Flour 6.5%
DAY 2
Flour 65%
Milk 52% (*Higher than yours)
Honey 1.9%
IY .09% (*Lower than yours due to freshly ground grains)
DAY 3
Flour 30%
Milk 9.3%
Eggs 13%
Honey 10%
Salt 1.1%
IY .56%
Butter 9.3%
ADJUSTMENTS in final dough - approx. 50 grams more flour that is not reflected in these % which were based on 250g flour only. Next time I would stiffen up day 2 since my HL level is still high there...
Loft is my challenge too but I think your method of lots of kneading is the way to go as it stiffens things up - or at least it did with this bake...My next try will be less hydration and I will keep with the intensive kneading.
I know that using a bit of sd would strengthen things up but then the flavor would change too...
Lots to fiddle with :)
Janet
Update
I just got an email from the friend I gave this loaf to. I have been baking bread for her since I began baking a couple of years ago. Her comment was that it was the best loaf I have ever made. I guess the flat tops don't effect the flavor :) I think they liked it too because of the IY instead of sd.
Janet, Great review. It's just a good bread. Not everything has to be sourdough. -Varda
Yeah, I am thinking that I will do a variation on this and keep it IY for my sandwich type breads and see what kind of feed back I get. I usually bake 1 or 2 sandwich loaves per week.
Today I decided to combine this formula with one of my 'standard' sandwich formulas but do it all in 24 hours.
This morning I made a roux as per the ASPDM sans the salt. This evening I will combine all the other ingredients with it and then let it sit overnight and bake tomorrow morning. This is the method I use using my WY so I am figuring it will work just fine.
I plan on decreasing the IY due to the overnight bulk and I am adjusting the butter and honey too so it isn't so sweet etc. I am curious to see how manageable the dough will be tomorrow and I will let my friend do a comparison for me since she has tasted the 3 day version. Actually I have 2 friends I can give loaves to since I have another one who has also had the 3 day one...
I'll keep you posted.
I do have to admit though that I LOVE using WY in my baking though I do 'spike' with IY on some due to add-ins....
Hard to change my ways....but I am making progress :)
Janet
Last installment....
My sojourn with these experiments has drawn to an end. The conclusion I have come to is exactly as you described with your two loaves.
I have baked this 3 different ways. My final was yesterday where I used a roux, a soaker and a biga (ala PR) and let them sit overnignt with a final dough being mixed in the morning and baked the same day. It by far had the firmest dough and was easiest to handle and I DID get photos.
Not the best photos due to lighting but photos none the less. You can see the nice domed tops although the 3 pieces are squished because it was too much dough for the pan yet not enough to split into a smaller one either....so I smooched them all in....
Daughter and friend said all trial loaves had the same flavor. Major difference was in texture. Original Pan de Mie (Syd's) was the softest - obviously due to all the extra wet time. This final tall loaf being the firmest.
Thus ends this weeks challenge :). I now have 3 ways I can make this loaf depending on the results I want and my time constraints....just like you.
Thanks for the inspiration to do this. I did learn a lot by doing it myself and not just by reading your results. I still want to fiddle with it to see if I can get nice rounded tops on the original again - or maybe I will just use the lid on my pullman and make it intentionally flat topped! (If you can't beat 'em - join 'em.)
Take Care,
Janet
P.S. Uh-oh....I was just browsing through the latest blog entries....someone else has posted 2 beautiful PDM but they are made with a poolish....I will not, I will not, I will not....... :- O
Janet, Great pictures. Good work. Nice bread. Thanks for sharing. -Varda
So Varda, you got bored and started branching out along the lines that led the Queen of France down that slippery slope to the Guilliotine...,
How do they toast? Jelly on same?
Tried cinnamon and sugar on top of the toast [either/or]?
Would you dare to make French Toast with either?
A freely made enquiry..,
Wild-Yeast
Hey, thanks for the warning. I'll keep an eye on my neck. Haven't toasted or dressed up in any way. These loaves disappear faster than a heart beat. And you are right, this bread is around as healthy as cake. -Varda