Hamelman three stage 90% rye sourdough
In trying to digest all the helpful advice I received from this list on managing fermenting, shaping, scoring, proper sourdough culture and so forth, I found myself in areas of Hamelman where I had never wandered before. I looked with some amazement at the instructions for Three stage 90% Sourdough Rye. This uses the Detmolder method of rye bread production. What struck me as altogether improbable, is that you start with a teaspoon - yes that is .1 oz, or less than 3 grams - of ripe starter and build it up to a pound and a half (672g) over the course of around 24 hours, in three stages with each stage oriented to developing a different characteristic of the starter. I admit, I wondered if this would work for a mortal baker such as myself, but I happened to have the necessary ingredients around (more or less) so I set off to see if an actual bread could be produced. The instructions in Hamelman (page 201 in my version of Bread) are quite clear. I followed his three stages carefully - and starting with a teaspoon of starter, produced a very pitted and expanded rye starter by the time it was ready to bake. The final dough calls for medium rye, which I didn't have so I used 60% white rye, and 40% whole rye. The instructions call for a bulk ferment time of 20 minutes, and final proof of around an hour. I had to call off the latter after 40 minutes because it had almost tripled in size was getting too
big for my stone. The instructions called for scoring with a dough docker, which I don't have, so instead I stippled with a skewer. The dough also seemed to stipple itself, so it was very holey by the time it was ready to go into the oven. Finally the house filled with an almost overwhelming scent of toasted rye. And an improbable loaf is now resting on my counter soon to be wrapped up in linen and cut and tasted tomorrow.
The stippling:
and profile:
and finally the crumb:
It's hard to assess this, since I've never actually eaten this type of bread before, and I don't know either what it's supposed to look like or what it should taste like. But just as a lay opinion on the matter, and after only a couple of bites, I would say yum!
Comments
Good for you, Varda!
Looking forward to your analysis of the taste and crumb.
Hi LindyD, My family wants to understand exactly why I'm not letting them at this bread yet. When I say, but, but, but.... the crumb has to set, they look at me as if I'm crazy. Hopefully all will be forgiven. I'll try to get some pictures before the vultures descend. Thanks for your comments. -Varda
:) Looking Good! Be sure to save a slice or two to include as altus into the next loaf. Seems to help slow the spreading. I've also admiring the fruit bowl and was thinking how tempting to bake the next loaf in it or something similar for the longer proof time. Just a thought. :)
Well now that you mention it, I have used that bowl for proofing before. This dough was extremely wet and I didn't want to make any sudden movements or scare it or whatever so I proofed it on top of parchment paper so I wouldn't have to disturb it much to get it into the oven. Also, there was no way to test it with the poke test, since that would have just left a hole in the surface. Is there a way to figure out when a bread like this is proofed enough, other than it's taking over your kitchen? And I still have that anxious feeling about Altus. I don't know when I'm going to get over it. Thanks for your comments. -Varda
Get your fingers good and wet and you won't stick to the dough. If you were worried about poking a hole through the dough, then it does sound overproofed. The crumb looks good so I'd say you didn't let it go too far. Good instincts! Yum!!!
Gosh, this was more like clay than dough - hardly elastic at all at any point in the process. I shaped it by patting it gently with very wet hands. When I've made Jewish rye, which has a significantly lower percentage of rye than this, if I pick it up to move it it still shows the impression of my hands after baking even if I get my hands good and wet. I'm curious if I am doing something wrong - too much water perhaps? Next time I'll try to take pictures during, though I'm a little too scattered to do that and bake correctly at the same time. Anyhow, I really appreciate your insights. -Varda
on the surface. When they begins to show up it's already becoming late.
Varda, a very nice bread. There's still a 10% in excess, though:)
Great. But it sounds like I need to see the potential for dots appearing as opposed to the dots themselves. But you said "already becoming..." so maybe that means "not quite too...." I'm starting to get the idea here. The dots become holes and that means the dough is deteriorating, so don't let it get to that point. And by 10% in excess you mean move onward and upward to 100% rye. Rye chauvinists unite! Thanks for your comments. -Varda
when a lot of dots are visible it's time for the oven.
Thank you. I think I know what to look for. Actually your first post was clear enough. My brain just wasn't after some good rye bread and a bit of wine to wash it down. -Varda
rising up and popping on the surface. Anything about the size of pin head, BB or pea at the largest. The surface will first get bumpy (if it was smooth) as bubbles make their way to the surface. The dough should have a dome and not be flattening out when it goes into the oven. The poke test, sorry, for really wet ryes, the paste does become spongy it just isn't the same as wheat doughs. The spongyness growing inside the dough can be detected with a not so agressive poke test but any bubbles bursting on the surface is an indication it's high time that dough was in the oven.
You might want to mix up a thick starter and put it into a glass take notes on it and play with it sniffing, poking and prodding to get yourself more familiar with rye esp. as it gets 3/4 way up to peaking. Then when you're done playing with it, throw it into the next batch.
Mini
Mini, This makes sense. I was totally in the dark about what to watch for, so now I'll have something to go by. Thanks! -Varda
That looks great Varda. The three stage Detmolder is a complicated recipe and you did a great job with it. I hope you enjoy the flavor.
Eric
Thanks for your comments Eric. Hopefully the first of many, and also a great instructor on how to build starters. -Varda
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Rye, Varda!
Great results when this is such new and strange territory.
So you'll have realised just how active a rye starter becomes with this sort of feeding regime. Min's advice is excellent, as your bread is actually almost over-proved. I'm making this assessment based on your description of pin holes already formed. Rye pastes [I hesitate to call it dough!] become deeply unstable at this late stage in proof, and during the heat treatment cycle. You have probably read Hamelman's discussion of how the starches in rye flour are knitted together by fibrous pentosans, which start to breakdown in the latter stages of the cycle. Once this happens, there is no going back, so an over-proved rye loaf can look really bad. Have you thought about doing these loaves in tins? Mini's advice is really important, as it seeks to find a way for you to maximise proof, and avoid the inevitable "spread" which occurs in this type of bread, when made without some kind of supporting vessel.
Looking forward to reports of crumb..and, especially flavour.
Best wishes
Andy
Andy, Hamelman instructions included adding an optional teaspoon of yeast, which I did, and in retrospect probably shouldn't have, given how active the starter was. As for proofing in a bowl or other container, it seems that had I done that the loaf would have been even messier than it was, since the pressures of moving to the oven would have deformed it. I think it's a great idea to try making this in loaf pans because it solves several problems at once. I am assuming you have done that and it works fine. Thanks. -Varda
Hi Varda,
Best help I can give in this is to look through my blog entries, here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/blog/ananda
There are quite a few entries involvig high rye breads made in tins
Yes, it's a good way to go; but catch the proof a trifle earlier.
I concur with yeast, and Hamelman hints as much. You do not need the yeast; it's a safeguard. But given you created a great culture, the extra yeast just gets in the way!
BW
Andy
Yes, I certainly will. Thanks for the suggestions. -Varda