My sourdough focaccia didn't rise and it looks doughy
Hi! So today I tried baking a focaccia with ny sourdough starter. It's my first time baking with sourdough starter.
Note: my sourdough starter is more than 2 months old and it's always rise very slowly. Around 19-20 hours before it starts to fall. But it always have bubbles and consistently rising.
Yesterday, I used it for focaccia when it just started falling. I mixed the starter, water, and salt first, then added flour, olive oil, and herbs. I let it rise for about 1 hour in room temperature and then put it in the fridge overnight (about 13-14 hours in the fridge). It didn't seem to rise much though.
Should I let the dough rise longer or did I put too much oil in the dough? Or should I add a bit of commercial yeast to help it rise?
FYI, I sprinkled some olive oil after getting it out of the fridge and some on the baking pan.
Hi thecozylibrary, I love focaccia and I remember my first SD attempt being doughy too so please don't be discouraged.
You mention that your starter starts falling after 20 hours. But when does it reach its peak? And what feeding ratios are you using? I ask because it sounds like you might have a somewhat acidic starter, unless you're giving it a super big feed. If your starter is too acidic you'll need to fix that first.
You also mention that you left it to bulk ferment for 1 hour before putting it into the fridge. 1 hour is really too short even if your proofing temperature is very high. What is the room temperature or dough temperature? For dough temps between 20 and 23C it might be good to target at least a 50% rise before putting the dough in the fridge.
In short, first establish that your starter is working, and if it is, bulk fermentation needs to be lengthened. Adding too much oil is unlikely to be issue - this will stretch your BF a little.
-Lin
Agree with Lin. More info needed. But as a more general observation about breads like pizza and focaccia, I have found, through many disappointments, that the fermentation must be very vigorous at the end of the BF. (Also going into the BF you also want your starter/levain to be very active too).
So, when you are flattening out your final dough, either for letter-fold laminations or ahead of putting it in the baking tray, bubbles literally need to be popping under your fingers as you squash it out.
I usually feed it 1:2:2, so 50 gr of starter, 40 gr of rye flour, 60 gr of AP flour and 100 gr of water.
I think it reaches it's peak in around 18-19 hours. I'm a beginner though so I'm still learning to see when is my starter at it's peak? Do you have any tips to see if my starter is at it's peak?
My room temperature is between 22-24°C. And how to see if it reaches 50% rise?
Thank you! 😊
By the way, this is my sourdough starter Anne 1-2 days before I bake.
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The starter looks great. I would use it at exactly that point it is in the photo, to produce a very vigorous pre-ferment (maybe 20g of the starter as pictured, 40g of water and 40g of flour for a 300g total flour focaccia) and then use that, once it is at about the fermentation level the pictured starter is at, to ferment the full amount of dough, obviously with the right proportions to have a 70% final dough hydration.
Only when that final dough is rising and active as I have described in my previous post (e.g bubbles popping under your fingers when flattening/shaping), then place it in the tin and let it rise again before dimpling with your fingers and baking.
Rene has nailed it down. I might add that if your starter had reached this level after 18 hours, then you might well need to expect at least the same type of duration with your pre-ferment and bulk fermentation.
I must say I've never worked with a starter that doubled in 18 hours with the ratio you mentioned, so can't give more precise advice. Do let us know how it goes!
P.s. Re peak - that's just the highest level your starter reaches before it starts falling. It might hold that level for an hour or two. Re 50% - if you want to be precise, you will need a proofing container with volume markings, if not just go with it :)
So to sum it up:
1. I'll try to bulk ferment the dough longer, probably at the same time my starter usually need to rise. Is there a maximum time limit to wait for the dough to rise?
2. Try using my starter before it's at its peak so it still have some time to produce gas.
3. Try adding bread flour. If I add bread flour, should I still use a bit of rye flour or do I change it completely?
4. I live in Indonesia so I've never heard of sparkling perrier water. I usually use mineral water or drinking water to feed my starter.
Also, today I tried to feed Anne 1:3:3. 30 gr of starter, 90 gr of flour and 90 gr of water to reduce the acidity. I also heard that it's better to feed peak to peak to reduce the acidity.
By the way, does anyone have any great focaccia recipe I can try? 😊
Thank you!
When a starter has a lot of rye (probably any whole grain) as yours does, it doesn't act so much the way you read about. The standard starter descriptions assume an all-white, fairly thin starter. The high-rye starter will be sludgy and won't have much strength to support a large rise. In 100% rye starters I see little rise but lots of bubbles that get larger and larger until they look just like your photo.
I suggest you try using the starter before it gets to this point of lots of large bubbles visible through the side. That's because at this point, the starter has just about spent all its potential activity. It's not any more active in terms of yeast concentration or gas-producing ability than it was a few hours earlier. It's just had more time to evolve more gas. Also, the longer you wait, the more acidic the starter will be, and maybe you don't want it to be too acidic.
I'm not saying it's wrong to wait to use it until it looks like the photos. It's just that I think you will get equal or better results sometime sooner. You do want to see a lot of active bubbles that are getting bigger and bigger.
The good news is that because the progression of the starter is so slow, you will have a long window of opportunity - you won't have to agonize whether you are using it at just the right moment (not that anyone should anyway!)
TomP
this is super-fascinating, Tom.
I've learned from my 100% rye starter that it has 3 rough stages after feeding --
I generally feed 1:3:3 or 1:5:5 or even 1:10:10 and my starter hits one of these stages in 5-8 hours. Doing a couple of 1:10:10 feeds and seeing how rapidly my starter gets to stage 3 seems to give a good measure of how strong the yeast is. But, my starter has also shown me that if I let it sit for a day on the counter after it reaches one of these stages, it will still look the same though it has become way more acidic.
The starter shown looks really good, but, particularly in a relatively warm kitchen, it might be a less rough beast if it looked like that after 8 hours rather than 18.
Rob
That's very interesting. I haven't used rye starters much yet, mostly for making rye sour sponges. I have noticed that mine take a long time to reach the late stage of development shown in the picture. I also notice that mine don't really collapse after that point. They just stay at the same height while the bubbles grow larger.
TomP
of rye starter fermentation there, Rob. I was thinking of you when Tom mentioned the difference with rye starters as I was sure you worked with these. My own starter is in fact exactly the same proportions as cozylibrary's. I tend to go 1:5:5 and it triples in 12 hours or so. It used to be a little more temperamental in its younger days but has now settled into a rhythm (9th anniversary in three weeks).
One new thought: given that thecozylibrary lives in Indonesia, the problem might reside in the freshness of the flour or the way it's been stored during shipping.
My starter was once almost ruined by some stale organic rye flour from a trusted national brand in the US, Bob's Red Mill. The flour was seriously flat, though it was 9 months or so from its 'best if used by' date. I got no rise & no bubbles until, like cozy, waiting 18 hours or even 24 hours.
I changed water, changed dosages, made it drier, made it wetter, fermented it longer, then shorter. Nothing helped. Until I bought a bag of local flour. One feed & it was ready to use. Now all I buy is locally grown and milled whole grain rye.
Rob
PS -- Lin: 9 years! Congrats🎉 in advance
Thanks for the suggestion Rob! I think there's no locally grown flour in Indonesia, not that I know of. I'm also a beginner so I usually just buy store-bought flour and I bought my rye flour online.
But will look into it in case I can find a better flour 😊
As a general rule, white flour has longer shelf life than whole grain bc most of the oily parts of the kernel have been sifted out.
That being said, I've had white flour go stale too. My luck!
And if the problem is pallets of flour sitting somewhere in the sun or humidity or heat, I'd imagine both can degrade. Oh well. Maybe a friend who's traveling can smuggle some for you.
Rob
will do some serious anniversary baking ;)
Congratulations Lin! 🥳
I used to have an AP flour starter but it only showed lots of progress in the first three days. From the fourth day onwards, there wasn't much progress. Only very small bubbles or no bubbles at all. Then it got moldy so I threw it out.
Anne is my second starter. I made it with half rye half AP because I read that adding whole grain flour like rye or bread flour can help the starter grow faster. It does grow well! Consistent rise, lots of bubbles. It usually rises only around 70-80% and lots of bubbles on the side that gradually becomes bigger like Tom said. Few bubbles on the top, maybe because the consistency is thick, but sometimes I do see bubbles on the top. The only problem is that Anne is very sluggish.
It might be because I've just got her out of the fridge on Tuesday (5 days ago) but from the beginning, Anne has always been sluggish. Back then when I used to feed it everyday, it also reaches its peak in around 18-24 hours. But, since it never doubles, it's kind of hard to see when does it reaches the peak.
Anyway, it's nearly 21 hours since I last fed Anne with 1:3:3 ratio and it hasn't reach its peak yet. Only small to medium bubbles on the sides. Maybe because I feed it in higher ratio than usual so I should wait a bit more.
if we lived closer to each other, I could bring you some of my starter since we have the same proportions!
At the end of the day - I fear your starter might well be a little too acidic at this point to rise bread fully. But don't give up, starters do strengthen over time. Try giving it fresher/different flour as suggested and see how it goes, always having a backup while you experiment. In the meantime, it really is fine to add a little bit of yeast to the final dough if you see that your levain/ starter continues to be sluggish.
Do let us know how it goes!
Nothing much more I can add from that aspect. My first thoughts were your starter doesn't sound like it's firing on all cylinders and use the strength of your starter to get an idea of how long to bulk ferment for. But his has already been pointed out.
I think you need to go back to the drawing board and look at what is happening in your starter. Rising nicely but very slow! Is your starter mainly bacterial is the water a problem?
For instance if you have been fermenting it at high temperatures and it's very hydrated it might be tipped in favour, more so than normal, of bacteria, it's too acidic and it;s lacking in a healthy yeast population.
The water you're using might also be an issue for any number of reasons.
Try using some sparkling perrier water to give your starter a treat. They like that! You can also lower the temps (if you have been keeping it too high) to 70-78F. And you can also lower the hydration to 80%. See how your starter reacts to that. Also try changing the flour as Tom has suggested. Introduce some bread flour. You can make it 50:50 if you wish.
If you wish to play it safe and want to treat it as an experiment then split your starter in two, maintaining one as you have been doing and experimenting with the other.
A day late, but I just so happened to make a big batch of SD focaccia yesterday, a few hours before you posted. Anyways, even with the lack of information on the post, the thing that jumps out to me is the 1hr room temp fermentation that you did. I live in similar conditions (I'm in Indonesia as well if you remember me), and I think 1 hour at room temperature is a really short time to ferment before the fridge, even if you use a large amount of starter. In the fridge the dough fermentation slows to a crawl if it reaches fridge temps. From my experience on home-sized dough batches, the dough would come out from the fridge as it had fermented 40m-1hr at room temp compared when it was first put in. In larger batches (dough for 4 large loaves) I actually only do 1hr room temp because if I go too far the dough would not cool down on time (the big batches come out as if they had fermented 2-3 more hours at room temp). But I assume you are working with a small batch here.
I don't maintain a rye or part rye starter, I sometimes make rye preferments/levains but they act really different from what you describe so I can't really help there, other than to point out that I thinm 20 hours for the starter to fall with 1:2:2 feeding ratio is really sluggish. Maybe something is to be done there.
Edit: With focaccia I think its fitting to push the fermentation a little farther than regular (hearth) bread, you get weaker dough, but it doesn't matter that much because you don't need much height. With more fermentation you can get more air and a more fermented flavor. Just my opinion about what foccacia should be
I agree with that. My rule of thumb is that noticeable fermentation will continue for about an hour after refrigeration. Of course, the larger the batch of dough the longer it will take to cool down and the more time the interior will take to cool down relative to the outside.
If a dough over ferments. Throw it in a pan, dimple it, sprinkle on toppings and bake.
I usually happen to have a bin or two of dough in a big batch that happens to overferment (because of fridge placement) and I used to just power through and try to turn it into hearth loaves, but it was a mess to work with (slack dough taking up too much oven space, sticking, and such). Only recently have I been messing with focaccia, I just took my regular sourdough recipe and intentionally "overfermented" the dough, much better to work with in focaccia form. The focaccia practice in handy a few days ago when I put some of my dough bins too late into the fridge, and the dough went over.
I make a small batch of focaccia. Do you have any suggestions on how long I should let it rise before I put it in the fridge and after I get it out of the fridge? 😊
Also since someone mentions about the type of flour I use might be the cause of a sluggish sourdough, what type/brand of flour do you use?
I usually use Segitiga Biru for the AP flour and I bought the rye flour online so I don't know the brand. Thanks!
As for how much time you need before the fridge, it depends on how much starter you are using. If I use 20% (Bakers percentage) starter I usually do 3 hours room temperature (30°C) before putting it in the fridge. But it's better to watch the dough than the clock, for focaccia I like to get the dough to double in volume before placing into the pan (compared to only 50-60% growth for free-form loaves).
For the flour I usually use Tepung Terigu Falcon Roti for my sourdough starter, it's a really strong bread flour and it's common online. My rye flour (wholegrain) also has no brand, but after some price comparisons I think the rye flour I have is from Wholegrain Milling Co. in Australia (I got mine for IDR 46k per kilo). But I think this might be more to do with the microbes and starter condition rather than the flour. The only other thing that I think might be wrong with the flour is it's age (too old or something) but I think it's unlikely that this is the problem. How does the starter smell when it is rising? It might give extra clues on what's happening.
Edit: I just read that Rob in a comment up there mentioned flour freshness, so maybe there is something to be done there. I now get my flour in more commercial scales, so the flour is more fresh, but I had no hiccups with my SD starter back when I was using retail flour.
I think my AP Flour might be the problem here, so I'll try changing it and I'll look out for the brands you use. As for my rye flour, the price of the rye flour I bought was nearly similar to you, so it might be from the same brand.
Also, my SD starter smells like tape when it's at its peak and smell stronger and sweeter when it has been overfermented. For everyone's not familiar with tape, it smells sweet and somewhat alcoholic.
My all-white starter smells banana-like from feeding time until it goes up before peak, before starting to go sour and very slightly alcoholic nearing peak. After that it smells even more alcoholic and sweet on the nose (like tape as you mentioned) as it collapses and goes old. My preference is to use mine right when it only smells slightly sour (along with smelling like bananas, those two smells are, I think, the smell of white sourdough), just as it peaks. I prefer to use it not before collapsing, but I think this is personal preference. This is just for all white flour starters, but maybe some information from this can be transferred onto your AP-rye starter.
By the way, I'm currently doing my second try of baking focaccia. I try to experiment with this one. So I made two dough in two separate bowls. In one bowl, I added a bit of instant yeast and in the other bowl there's only sourdough starter.
In the first bowl with instant yeast, it's firmer and smells like bread, while in the other bowl with only starter, it smells a bit sour and the dough is more runny.
I tried to do stretch and fold (have only done my first session). The dough is kind of sticky, but I can still pull it and fold it. It still breaks quite easily though. The one with the instant yeast is firmer and doesn't break so easily when I stretch it out.
Is it normal or should I add more flour to the dough? I'm planning to do some more sets of stretch and fold.
If the dough is runnier and breaks while you stretch and fold the dough, it means that the sourdough is breaking down the dough more than it should be. Sourdough usually has weaker dough the longer you go compared to instant yeast. But since this is the first fold I assume that this is quite early in the process, in which case sourdough and instant yeast dough should act similarly. Maybe the starter is too acidic and hasn't got a good balance yet. You can try doing stronger folds and see if it strengthens up. If you plan to add more flour, I don't know what to think about it since I only use flour when shaping on the bench but I never had to knead in extra, maybe someone else can weigh in here.
You can knead in more flour, and it can be helpful. If the dough has been breaking down too much, more flour probably won't rescue it. I had that happen recently, and even adding in quite a lot of flour didn't save the dough. It all depends on the flour, though. Some flours are very sensitive to the hydration level. So you could try a lower hydration. That rather goes against the idea of focaccia, though, doesn't it?
TomP
and it seemed quite ready, should I move it in the pan and put it in the fridge? I can proof it tomorrow morning and bake it.
Or should I wait longer and do some more stretch and fold sessions?
Edit: I reread the recipe and found out that I should have added more flour. There was two types of flour in the recipe and I missed the other one lol. Will add more flour! 🤣
I tried adding a bit of flour to the sourdough only dough. But, once I added flour, I think it became more sticky. The instant yeast dough is also stickier since my last stretch and fold.
The good news is I notice some bubbles in both dough. The instant yeast one have more bubbles and I can feel the bubbles popped when I did the second stretch and fold. The sourdough one has bubbles but I can't feel the bubbles pop under the dough, maybe it still needs more time?
Should I try adding rye flour to strengthen the dough? Rye flour usually makes my starter firmer.
By the way, is the dough supposed to be more runny/watery in focaccia? I think it should not be as firm as if I'm making bread 😊
I think not much bubbles are supposed to pop during bulk fermentation and stretching & folding, but this is focaccia so I think it would be fine as long as you don't go too far. You can put the yeasted dough in the fridge if it has grown a good bit (70% the original size or something, so that when it's on the fridge it reaches double or 100% growth), and keep stretching and folding while it's in the fridge (take out, do the stretch and fold, put back in). Or put it in the pan if it has grown enough. I personally wouldn't try to add rye flour, it will make the dough stiffer because it's really thirsty.
Rye flour will work against you here. It makes weak, stretchy gluten and your dough is already weak and stretchy. It makes your starter seem firmer because it soaks up more water, but that firmness is more of a paste, not what you want here.
Focaccia is a very high-hydration dough by design. But high-hydration doesn't mean a weak dough that breaks when stretched. Once it has developed its gluten the dough should be able to stretch out very far with no sign of breading.
I decided to add rye flour to the dough (right before I read your comments :") ) and I put the instant yeast dough in the fridge overnight.
I proofed it for about 2 hours this morning as it had rise 2X its height the night before. Then I baked it. The inside is soft, but the crust is hard. I think I overbaked it. Do you have any suggestions on how to make the crust softer?
I also think I should proof it longer in the pan so it can rise higher.
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There are two standard remedies for a hard crust:
1. A lower bake temperature, possibly only during the last half of the bake.
2. Cover the top of the loaf with aluminum foils or some other cover during the last part of the bake.
The crust color and crumb looks good. One thing off is maybe the lack of the typical "hilly" look of the top of the focaccia created by big air bubbles, maybe a longer final proof would help. To fix the hard crust, you can try baking with steam for the first 10 mins or so, it can make the crust more delicate.
That hilly look is typically caused by dimpling the top using quick jabs of the fingertips and a lot of olive oil to keep them from sticking.
I get the impression (no pun intended?) that the hilly look comes from bubbles because mine already looks quite hilly before I jab it, mostly from a long final proof. But you are correct, dimpling is probably contributes more to the hilly look than the bubbles, many focaccias with tight crumb also have hilly tops from the dimpling.
Dimpling also traps more olive oil, which I think is considered desirable for focaccia.
I'll try to bake with lower temperature since I don't have aluminium foil.
How to bake with steam? Should I add a pan woth water alongside the focaccia pan in the oven?
I'd recommend you try Tom's suggestions first, people generally don't bake focaccia with steam. But if you decide to do so, I usually just use a pan that was preheated along with the oven, and then put in water (hot is preferable) into the pan right after you place the bread in. The pan is then removed from the oven after 10-12 mins. But it's definitely fussier than just lowering bake temp for the second half of the bake, so I recommend you to try that first. Other options for steam is to spray the bread with water at the start, and then later in a few intervals, but this method is not ideal, because you would make your oven lose a bunch of heat because you have to open the door to spray the bread.
I wouldn't worry about the potential loss of heat. If the oven has been preheated long enough, it will recover its temperature. It one generates steam by throwing water in, the oven temperature will drop by much more and stay low for much longer. That's not necessarily bad because it allows the crust to stay soft longer.
People usually put the steam pan underneath the baking rack. Usually the pan is filled with rocks or rock chips, with lava rocks being preferred but not necessary. A cup of water is thrown onto the pan right after the loaves are loaded into the oven. You have to be very careful about
1. Don't get scalded - steam will billow out of the oven door and your hand and arm need to be protected. A big oven mitt is good for this. Keep your face away from the door.
2. DO NOT let any water fall onto the glass insert in the oven door. It may crack.
You can augment or replace the above with "Sylvia's" method. It is discussed in another thread starting here:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/536472#comment-536472
Forgve me my trespass... but one of the things I found useful when my starters are young is to add a bit of ADY to the dough to supplement the starter. Still get the sourdough flavor and some increased rise reliablility also.
That's common with some European rye breads. They use a rye sponge for flavor and yeast for leavening.
Don't be afraid of yeast. It's there for good reason. Enjoy!