September 9, 2024 - 7:28am
Enhancing oatiness
I'm experimenting lately making loaves with as high a percentage of oats as possible. Right now at about 40% coarse ground and scalded, mixed into WW and AP flours. I like the texture, especially as a breakfast bread. But even at 40%, the "oaty" taste is quite mild. I've tried toasting some or all of it before scalding, but that hasn't made much difference.
Do you know any tricks to bring out the taste of the oats?
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I saw a 100% oat bread from plötzblog a few months ago. It has a scald, and uses both SD and commercial yeast. Appearently he didn't use any oat flour, just oat flakes (translation said that he used "large leaf" and "small/tender leaf" oats, I assume its rolled oats and instant/quick oats respectively). No idea how he gets it still relatively aerated, looks like a rye bread in density. Haven't tried it but maybe I might some time in the future.
link: https://www.ploetzblog.de/rezepte/reines-haferflockenbrot/id=621df30abc8f7e40a2857ec5
Thanks.Definitely looks like rolled oats. Looks like a very adventurous loaf!
For example, Bob's Red Mill Extra Thick Rolled Oats? I guessing...
This page says
that's all about texture, not taste. Taste-wise I have not found a significant difference in my breads between using rolled oats, steel cut, or coarse-ground. I'm looking for anything that will "bring out" the oat taste more.
I've never achieved more than a very mild oat flavor in my attempts. I wrote it off to being old.
I don't think your age has anything to do with it! :)
Since oats are pretty mild tasting to begin with, I doubt there is anything that would increase the oat flavour itself. Your idea of toasting was probably the best, but it didn't work.
I think enhancing the overall flavour of the loaf might be the most you can do. You could try oat milk (but, apparently it doesn't taste like oats), spices like cinnamon, nutmeg or cardamom, and butter in the dough.
I did a small experiment a while ago. I baked three loaves of the same bread, incorporating oats in different ways:
1. Raw rolled oats
2. As an oat soaker
3. Cooked into a porridge.
I thought the flavor increased from 1 to 3. I'm not saying that the oat flavor was intense, but it was there and was pleasant.
TomP
Have you tried them?
Have you had success sprouting oats (groats)? I have struggled!
But I see we can buy them on Amazon for prices that aren't too insane for an experiment.
Sprouted rolled oats
Effect of heat treatment on the flavor of oat flakes
I have found that oats need less salt than other grains.
Thanks, I will try that.
@Gary, I have not tried sprouting. It's more involed than I want at this point.
@TomP, interesting experiment. So more cooking = more taste. Did you simmer it down to a similar consistency/hydration that the soaker had?
@Gary, your article suggests similar to Tom's finding. I believe the groats I have been using are hulled.
No, I didn't pay attention to that. I just cooked it to a stiff porridge - after it had cooled, it was stiff - and hoped that the water would work out.
I’d toast flaked or steel-cut oats in a dry pan on low until they turn golden and smell nutty, then cook them into porridge with milk.
Yippee
I've done that several times. It's very aromatic, but it doesn't transfer into the taste. I was surprised.
Oats do have a really mild flavor that might just get lost in the bread making process. But I wonder if the brand of oats might make a difference?
We eat oatmeal quite often and I don't always make the effort to flake oats. Usually we get the large economy size Quaker old fashioned oats from Sam's club. They were out last time, so I bought the Member's Mark version. I was surprised to discover they were actually more flavorful than the Quaker oats! The McCanns steel cut oats in the tin also tend to have more flavor than others I have tried. Our home flaked oats tend to have the least oaty flavor, so something in the toasting and processing of commercial oats seems to bring out the flavor, and it seems to vary a little by brand.
I haven't tried to bake with any of the above, so it's pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps a more flavorful brand of oats would help? You might just end up with a pantry full of oats and no significant change in the flavor of your bread. But if you use oats regularly it might be worth exploring?
Second thought.... a little dab of butter seems to help that oaty goodness linger on my palate in my morning bowl. I wonder if buttered oat bread toast would be similar that way.
Mary
I have not tried any 'national' brands, but even at 40% of flour weight, I have not noticed a significant difference in taste in bread between the various organic steel-cut and groats that I've used. Am currently trying oat groats from Azure. No matter the source, the 'oaty' flavor always seems to get neutralized in baking.
PS - I forgot to mention, 11 years of my childhood was in Cedar Rapids, IA where Quaker Oats had a processing plant. On days where the wind was blowing the 'wrong' way, the odor on our side of town was unpleasant and inescapable... it took me many years to overcome this negative impression and actually start enjoying oats!
I grew up in heavily industrialized NW Indiana. We could tell which way the wind was blowing depending on the smell:
We lived too far away from the steel mills in the area (and there were many) to smell those distinctive odors. Plus, they would've had to compete with the nearby odors.
It wasn't so bad in the South Side of Chicago. But when the wind was right, there was the huge US Steel plant ...
I imagine the odor detection depended on where you lived on the South Side. Farther south from the South Works it would've been more difficult to avoid the odor; what with Acme, Republic, and Wisconsin Steel plants along the Calumet River.
Fun fact: We would occasionally head over to South Chicago to watch dumping of slag produced by Wisconsin Steel. We could tell when this was occurring after dark because the sky would have an orange glow when viewed from a 2nd-story west-facing window. We'd hop in the car and quick drive over to an alley behind S. Muskegon Ave. around 103rd St. We could park about 150 m from the dump site, watch the molten slag flow from the cars, and feel the heat from the molten slag! Those were the days!
Slag Valley (Not my photo, but I wish it was!)
South Chicago slag (Also not mine)
I was mostly in Hyde Park, north of the plant.
we drove to Michigan City when I was a kid. From Gary on was pretty bad.
Ah, Gary! I remember driving past Gary in summer in a car with no air conditioning. We had to keep the windows rolled up because of the stench but rolled down because of the heat. And that was at night.
I have had the same experience with oats in bread. The "oatiness" doesn't seem to come through.
One form of oats that you might want to try is oat malt. Simpsons Malt from the UK produces Simpsons Golden Naked Oats Malt that has a nutty flavor. It also is nice in that it is made with a huskless oat so there is no husk to sift out on grinding. Briess Malting also makes a Blonde RoastOat Malt that is similar to the Simpsons version but I have not tried it.
I have only used small amounts of the oat malt in couple of oatmeal breads because I was initially concerned about the diastatic power of the malt. Simpsons doesn't list the DP in the specs but with more searching I found that it has none, like crystal barley malts. I haven't tried it again since finding that info, but I picked up some on my last trip to the homebrew store so it's on the baking docket. I'll use a much higher level in the bread to see if more of the oat flavor is present.
Interesting suggestion. Other than solod with rye, I haven't found malts to have a huge impact on flavor. I'll see if I can find something stateside like it. Not worth sending off to UK for it.
EDIT: My bad - they are in the US. Will order some!
Pls do keep us posted on your further results!
There’s more about adding it below https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54955/golden-naked-oats
and here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+you+add+golden+oat+malt+to+bread+dough&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS676US676&oq=can+you+add+golden+oat+malt+to+bre&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgDECEYoAEyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRigAdIBCTE4Nzg2ajBqN6gCGbACAeIDBBgBIF8&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Will definitely consult them when the malt arrives (ordered yesterday).
Gripe: It costs $9 to ship 1 pound 1,000 miles...
I was actually thinking of ordering enough stuff to get free shipping 😳 but then if it’s not useful it’s not so free! So I’ll wait and see what you think. I believe the oat malt , since it’s non diastatic, will act like a sweetener and flavor enhancer, browning agent like my current non diastatic malt that I converted from diastatic by baking for 5 minutes. I use it all the time in 29-30 g amounts in my pizza dough etc. it’s definitely a flavor color enhancing agent. Keep us posted. c
Do you have a homebrewing supply store near you? With the popularity of homebrewing, there may be a local store that you could get some without the shipping charge. I can get it for $2.74/lb at the local homebrew store, and I am fortunate that it is near the mega-grocer where I shop.
Nearest one is 60+ miles now.
Now I’m stuck with mail orders.
The oat malt arrived (their service was horrible, BTW, they created a shipping label and then sat on the order for 5 days before actually shipping it), and indeed it has a nice nutty aroma. This recipe scalds the coarse-ground oats. Would you add the malt to the scald, or mix it into the main dough?
I saw the one at the link where he uses his bread machine. I just add a couple tsp. like he did to whatever I’m baking. I’d start with that and see what you think about the flavor. I don’t know if scalding would release more flavor or not.
I just had an ordeal ordering something also from a company , not food related, and they finally reprocessed the order as the original was never “ picked up” by the USPS. There is a lot of difficulty with the USPS at present.
Post the recipe and we can see what you are talking about. c
Good idea, keep it simple first use. I scald solod for rye to good effect, so I thought maybe it would be good here too.
The recipe is one I've been evolving for months, don't have it in sharable form yet. The goal is similar to the "max bran" bread I make, but using coarse-ground oats; to increase the amount and taste of the oats for a breakfast bread. Will share when it's stable. Right now the oats are about 38% of the total dry weight.
I think many shippers hide their lax order processing behind the virtual wall, and a lot gets blamed on USPS that isn't their fault. Especially true with online order processing. Simply create a shipping label, and the system will report that the item has been shipped. Even if they haven't packed it yet. Or handed it to USPS. The latter is what happened in this case.
https://www.sustainagrain.com/store/p/brewers-kernza-bl86l
I said I had tried to flake the Kernza but wasn't able to successfully get the flakes I am used to with the oats. But look here !! At the above link it is too big a quantity but they talk about it being a great substitute for the golden naked oats !!
The porridge bread I made yesterday ROSE and ROSE in the fridge overnight. I just finished baking one huge boule and the other is almost finished. I am excited to see how the Kernza porridge has contributed to flavor and texture ext. Stay tuned. c
That's interesting. I will keep an eye out for Kernza locally.
The folks at Perennial Pantry is where I bought it. It is quite expensive but really delicious. I added 1/2 and 1/2 to my cooked flaked oatmeal yesterday since I had more cooked than I needed for my bread. It was delicious. This is the last of mine.
I noticed that Breadtopia also has it . There are only 2 reviews I so I don't think that is representative of the grain as they don't understand how to use it . Anyway we can hope that this plus the Blue Salish I am trying to locate will lead to more perennial grains . c
Instead of using water or regular milk, try using oat milk. That'll add an extra oaty flavor.
I've been following and reading the links (the ones in English) and ruminating about what you want to do and have a few thoughts.
As far as going to 100% oats-this sounds more like a gluten free loaf. I have seen a lot of recipes for these but the few times I tried, the "bread" was more like slicing a thick porridge than a slice of bread. Too moist, deceivingly aerated structure and very starchy tasting. GF bread needs a structural ingredient-usually a gum, psyllium husk or a starchy flour and an absorptive ingredient like a bran, ground flax or brown rice flour so that the crumb is not soggy.
As far as "oaty taste". Any oats have a very mild flavor and a little salt and sugar will go a long way to enhancing it. Toasting them adds a caramelly flavor, I'm sure-it does when I make granola or cookies. Fermentation can enhance it, also. There was interesting information on some brewing sites and a really interesting recipe for oat kvass. I believe that a nicely fermented flavor of the oat's natural sugars and any sugars in the dough would really complement the mild oat flavor. Add some SD starter? Yeast water?
Apparently malting helps to a point but can cause bitterness if overdone. Oats are used in brewing/flavoring various whiskeys and other liquors. I'm not a brewer but it was interesting reads.
I am not surprised about the comments re: different brands tasting different. I have experienced that phenomenon. Some just taste like lumpy glue. I eat oatmeal a lot and have found I really like Scottish oatmeal. It is a different shape (cut up rolled??) and IMO, the flavor is optimal for oats. Here is info from Bob's Red Mill re: What is Scottish oatmeal?":
So that is my 2 cents. Happy baking and keep posting-it is an interesting topic.
I won't be going down the gluten-free loaf road, using odd ingredients (husks and gums) to make it resemble "bread". That said, as mentioned earlier, this is a breakfast bread, and I don't mind if it's more dense or moist than "normal". I tend to prefer denser breads anyway.
I just made a loaf using the malt mentioned above. It's cooling now, will see the results later. Nothing in the aroma stands out as different.
The coarse-ground groats I'm using from an old-school hand grinder is a lot closer to what you describe than anything I've ever seen in a store.
I may just pre-soak the oats next time instead of scalding them, which may soften them too much. I'm also shooting for a chewier texture.
I used my home flaked oats for porridge bread the last time I made it. This week I used the Kernza grain that I still had on hand. I had tried to prep it and flake it with the motorized flaker but the grains are smaller and slippery and just wouldn't really flake.
So I cooked them in the double boiler till tender and just right as far as chewy. I weighed out the 300 grams of cooked grains and used them in a 2300 gram batch of porridge SD with additional AYW . They ROSE up beautifully and are retarding in the fridge. I am expecting a lovely chewy whole grain bread.
I hope yours turns out well. c
That sounds great, tr. I've never had Kernza.
Today was hectic and required more multi-tasking than usual. I was a bit undiscipliined in today's experiment (as if comparing a taste today to a taste two weeks ago isn't undisciplined enuf... :) ) Besides adding the malt (25g, 3.5%), I also didn't use the 52g of CLAS that I did last time. I reasoned the CLAS' acidity might not be playing well with the oatiness. And, I made it in a Zo X20 bread machine. I am not fond of Zo's, but I had been wanting to compare it to another dual-paddle machine I have and like, and which I'd made this bread in previously.
At dark crust setting, it took the 65 minutes in the X20 to reach 197 inside (that's a normal interior temp here at 7000 feet). The other machine did it in 50 min. And there was almost no top browning. Typical Zo.
Despite that, adding the malt and not using CLAS made a definite improvement in the oatiness. It's as if there were fewer flavor components competing with the oats, allowing them to come through. Crumb is dense but soft and textured. Bordering on crumbly but it handled after slicing without falling apart. My hunch is, the taste difference would have been greater had it been baked at proper temperatures; the Zo tops out at 294º in dark crust mode. That's why it requires extra baking time.
So I'd say adding the malt was a good thing.
The flour portion of the recipe is 250g oats, 275g fresh-milled whole wheat, and 150g AP. Perhaps moving some of the WW into AP will bring the oats out a little more.
It’s a great porridge bread that Danni used to make, she doesn’t post anymore. I’ve made it a lot and it’s always perfect.
Im not familiar with bread machines. or altitude baking so can’t help at all with that. I think I’ll get some of the oat malt. We have lots of distilleries around here in VA Shenandoah valley
It's a lovely looking bread, but like most of the recipes I've seen, the oats are a very small % of the non-liquid ingredients.... not what I'm going after here.
I've worked quite a bit with oats to make a tasty, digestible yet sufficiently broken down granola for my family over the years so wondered if some of the ideas might apply.
For me extreme oatiness came through the moment I started soaking them for longer periods of time. At the moment I've settled on 12 hours overnight in the fridge with milk, some lemon juice, and a small sprinkle of rye flour. I did consider soaking them with a bit of my rye starter instead of the lemon juice and flour, but I thought the tang might be less desirable in granola than in bread.
The first time I did this I was really confronted by extreme oatiness when I lifted the lid in the morning - almost pungent. I generally taste the oats before I bake them, and the overnight batches always produce more flavourful versions pre- and post-bake. I suppose a substantial part of whatever grain flavour we taste in a finished baked product comes from combining degrees/ways of fermentation.
P.S. I agree with you that the WW might be stealing the show a little. Maybe also increase the oats % to make up for the decrease in WW%?
-Lin
I'm guessing the oats are pretty mushy after 12 hours in milk. If so, it seems there's a texture/taste tradeoff... how do you then dry it for your granola?
I will definitely use less WW next time.
but I always only put enough for the oats to soak everything up and retain a good bite. There's no liquid left in the pot after the soak, and the oats form only small clusters, no mush. I vary the amount of milk I use depending on the kind of granola I want to make - clusters or individual oats, all possible. I bake them in the oven and they get dry and crunchy.
So I think this method might be worth trying for your purposes! Let me know how it goes if you do end up trying. Happy to provide initial measurements if needed.
-Lin
It sounds promising, I'll try it next loaf. Yes, some idea of initial measurements would be helpful, thank you. I'm having difficulty imaging it.
I stopped keeping granola in the house years ago. It's too easy to snack on constantly!
the hydration will vary, but let's go with ballpark 68-80% for standard cooking oats (not steel cut, not quick-cooking oats). So maybe start with 340g milk for 500g oats, and then increase it if you find that you need more? I might try this out and make a 50% oat bread this weekend, so if you're hesitant I could report back and save you disappointing attempts!
P.s. yogurt, buttermilk or even water works very well. But some acidic component is necessary (that's why the lemon juice). Also, adding rye or wheat flour is supposed to help with the phytic acid, but I've never really gone all out to find out how true that is.
P.p.s. I love bread but granola comes a close second ;) I make granola by the kgs!
-Lin
Thank you for the details! I'll try it next week, we have to eat this one first :). Would love to see your 50% oats result.
I made a small 50% oat 10% WW 40% white loaf today with overnight soaked oats. Here are the results:
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Results: Insanely delicious crust and unexpectedly tender crumb; no visible oats in the crumb after baking (although you can see them in the crust!) but they retain a really nice bite. However - oats flavour was overpowered by my sourdough levain. I was expecting BF to be around 4 hours going by the levain % but it ended up being 8 hours! This has never happened before.
Changes to be made to the next attempt: I'm going to bring up the hydration of the soaked oats; I think they can still absorb a little more without losing their bite in the final dough. This will make for easier mixing and less dehydration of the dough during BF. I will use instant dry yeast instead of SD to really let the oats flavour come through.
Will report back!
Wow, that looks delicious! Yes, methinks sourdough is too strong if you want to taste the oats. I found the same thing. I'll follow your lead next week and use less WW and more oats and AP. I will keep an eye out for extending BF time.
Thanks for jumping on it!
The new tweaks have improved the bread, for sure. This is still 50% oats, 10% WW and 40% bread flour, but I've increased the hydration significantly. Rise was better, taste was excellent, and the oatiness came through. Crumb has a great bite - springy with flecks of oats to bite - no crumbly-ness whatsoever. The crust remains a real winner with this method, I think. Because the oats remain more intact than, say, porridge, it feels almost to me that I have a granola-tasting crust.
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I will replicate the experiment tomorrow with a bigger loaf and perhaps just one or two smaller tweaks, before writing it up in a blog post. Thanks for the very interesting original post; I wouldn't have tried making such a high oats % bread otherwise!
-Lin
You are a prolific baker, Lin! Your initiative is appreciated! I'd be happy with either version :) Looking forward to your blog post. I'll definitely follow your lead when I make it again next week.
I made a loaf today using your guidelines, Lin.
14 hr fridge soak of 300g coarse-ground oat groats, 230g H20, and 12g CLAS (<4 PH, I didn't have lemon juice).
Then 225g AP, 100g WW, 25g oat malt, 200g H2O, 7/8 tsp SAF, 3/4 tsp salt, 1 tbsp brn sugar
Ran into a time bind and made it in a bread machine again, this time a Tfal Emeril which is a very good baker (388º in Whole Wheat dark mode). Ferment/proofing time was 2:15 which worked for the previous version but was not nearly long enough for this recipe. Rise was much slower than the previous; it probably could have used another hour or more. Nevertheless:
: Oat taste is definitely improved.
: Really nice chew to the crumb. Coarse-grinding the oat groats gives a variety of texture. And the cold soak didn't turn them to mush, a definite improvement over the scald last used.
: And the crust! Like you said, it has a granola-like crunchiness, really great! The hotter bake no doubt helped too.
Next time I'll let it rise longer, but this is definitely a big improvment, it's a great breakfast bread now! Thanks for your help!
that the recipe worked well in your bread machine. Thanks for updating! Yes, the bread takes some time to rise with so little yeast, but the end flavour is worth it. Glad you enjoyed it!
P.s. lemon juice/CLAS is optional if you're not bothered about the phytates.
worked fine for the version that was 50% WW, so the increased oat content must be slowing it down. I'm at 7000 ft., things levitate easily up here, especially during Balloon Fiesta... fermenting dough will float away if not secured! :) I always use < 1/2 the yeast of what sea-level dwellers use.
The timing for developing this recipe is good. A family member is having 'gut biome' issues and has to reduce/eliminate fiber intake for a while. No fibrous veggies or whole grains, only oats and limited white wheat flour are allowed. So now he has a bread to eat!