How does apple juice affect fermentation?
Hello all,
I'm going to attempt sourdough apple cider donuts in a week and I wanted to get some advice on how go about fermenting a dough where apple cider is the main source of liquid.
I won't be using any commercial yeast, only wild yeast. (I know I'm probably needlessly stubborn on this, but I really enjoy the challenge of only using wild yeast.) While I have a fairly happy and vigorous starter, I have struggled to get doughs to rise that are enriched with a lot of sugar. (I can get a good rise out of 15%, but have yet to get a dough with 20% sugar to get a good rise.)
I will be making my own cider. I have an apple tree in my backyard that has done quite well this year. I'm going to puree the apples in a food processor, then use a cheesecloth to strain the juice. (Any ideas on what I can do with the remaining pulp?) The recipe I'm going to use calls for 50% apple cider, the remaining liquid will come from egg, milk, and butter. The recipe calls for 15% sugar, but I plan on adjusting it to 10%.
So, do folks think the sugar in the apple cider will impede fermentation? Or will there be some enzymes in the apples that speed up fermentation? I don't know if this makes a difference, but I will be baking the donuts rather than frying them. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!
Can't imagine the apple juice affecting it too much. Sugar content isn't so high and it won't amount to the same as many enriched dough recipes. The only thing to look out for is an expected longer time to ferment. Sourdough does work well with enriched doughs if given all the time it needs. What you can do, although not entirely necessary, is pre-ferment more flour and water from the final dough.
check out Benny's blog series on Hokkaido milk breads. He does interesting things with the enriched dough and a special sweet thick starter. Also the discussion on pandan might be helpful to you as Mini provided some tips.
Note that fruit pulp and seeds may have lots of pectin. Freezabke and good for making jams and jellies.
Why not a 'wild' yeast water that's been fed with your apples? Does it have to be a sourdough?
I keep an AYW (apple yeast water) in my fridge and the yeasties certainly love the apple and it doesn't impede fermentation. I do peel the apples in case of fungicide spray residue left on the skins, probably not a concern for backyard apples.
I'd probably start with making a raisin yeast water (since it is dependable and works fairly easily, although theoretically you could start straight away with the apples too); see a description of the process here from our community bake: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60872/community-bake-hamelmans-swiss-farmhouse-part-1-yeast-water - once you have a raisin yeast water it is possible to just feed that with apple to turn it into an apple yeast water. Mine is fed chopped/peeled apples and chlorine-free water.
I want to try yeast water someday, but this is a new bake for me so I'm going with what I know.
I do have some raw sauerkraut juice in the fridge. I'm going to mix that with some rye flour and see if it rises. If it does, I'll trying baking a loaf with it.
I like Jon’s idea of using an apple yeast water levain, you could so fancy and also do a stiff sweet levain. I have found the use of a sweet stiff levain seems to help overcome some of the slowing of microbial activity that can happen with enriched doughs. But I love the idea of using both the yeast water and a stiff sweet levain to raise your apple cider doughnuts. Apple juice apparently ranges in pH between 3-4.5. 3 is pretty low so I wonder what effect that will have on the proteolytic enzymes. I would guess that your dough will start out with a much lower pH than if you just used milk or water. So one concern I might have would be whether or not you’ll get gluten degradation faster than expected for the degree of rise of your dough. It would be really interesting to compare the pH of this dough you’re planning to make and a typical sourdough at the time of mix. Most of my doughs start out with a pH around 5.4 after the levain is mixed into the autolysed dough. I wonder how much lower it will be for your dough if apple cider is the main hydrating ingredient?
Benny
In their breads and don't report issues. Never done it myself as I prefer to drink it. I wonder what the pH level of a fully fermented apple yeast water is after having apples soaking in it for 4-5 days.
3.5 is the magic number! YW and fruit are always around that figure, it's a nature thing.
Adding low~ish pH YW to flour to make a dough doesn't typically result in an overly acidic dough. This is because pH is just one particular interpretation of acidity. The TTA of YW will be relatively low (it is mostly water) such that it can have little influence on flour (white flour pH ranges from 5.8 (more refined) to 6.1 (less refined)) and has a degree of buffering capacity.
It is the pH of the dough and not water used to make it that matters...
As always when it comes to bread baking... it's never the full picture! Every time I think I have the full picture there's more. Try an idea and if it doesn't work.... adjust.
Very handy to know... "It is the pH of the dough and not water used to make it that matters".
Another piece of the puzzle falls into place.
Of course that makes sense Michael, the TTA of the apple juice wouldn’t be that high. Thanks as always for your knowledge.
Benny
To be clear Benny, Apple YW since it mainly consists of water, this would dilute the acidity from the apples and would have a low TTA. Apple juice however, would obviously have a significantly higher TTA by comparison.
Yes of course, apple juice being all from the apple and not watered down will have higher TTA compared with an apple yeast water.
I have not yet ventured into measuring the pH of my doughs. I'm fairly meticulous with my process and keep decent notes. I would love to have another variable to tinker with. I may have to get a pH meter soon.
You offered me the suggestion earlier of using a stiff starter for doughs enriched with sugar. I did do an experiment with a stiff starter fed with 20% sugar and I was getting it to rise. I still haven't tried it in a bake though.
I got a nice rise with my 100% hydration starter on a dough with 15% sugar. Next time I go higher I'll try the stiff levain. Since I'm going to use 10% sugar in this formula, and it doesn't sound like the apple cider will contribute much sugar, I'll probably just use my starter to leaven the dough.
I’ve made several bakes using apple cider as the main liquid with zero effect on fermentation. Lemons and orange juice are a completely different story though as is wine. I’ve also used hard cider in several bakes including a porridge bread I made recently.
Ian
when you say you will be making your own cider... If that is the case then what additional sugar, since most of it will be fermented into alcohol which would be in keeping with the base recipe, no?
Or are you incorporating fresh apple juice, which is not cider.
In any case like Abe said it's unlikely to be that much of a concern since apples are not particularly high in sugar compared to some other fruits or if it's the case of cider then the alcohol content might provide an issue but, again it is unlikely.
The malic acid from the apples might be interesting in a SD fermentation however...
Michael
Strictly speaking, apple cider in the US and Canada is defined to be an unfiltered, unsweetened juice from apples that is boiled to concentration. To make matters more confusing, most apple cider recipes here call for sweetener, orange, and spices. There is also some debate as to whether it should be boiled or not. The alcoholic beverage is called hard cider to distinguish it from apple cider.
My wife used to get apple cider donuts in Apple Hill in California. The apple cider there was made using a press and was not boiled. I want to emulate those donuts as much as I can. I'll be using some spices, but don't want them to overwhelm the apple flavor.
Ah I see, over here there's no need for the prefix since we are hard by default.😆
I guess boiling was used to make the juice stable and prevent fermentation. As for spices, cinnamon and cloves seem like ideal candidates but I'll leave that up to you.
Good luck with this, sounds like the result will be super tasty!
The funny thing is, apple cider seems to be the only juice called cider. As far as I can tell, no other fruit juice is typically called cider here.
We also call rugby football... (Not entirely true. We have a major rugby league, but it is not anywhere near the NFL in popularity.)
I'm going to just use cinnamon. My wife prefers apple desserts to not have too much spice. I wouldn't mind a little clove, but she is of the opinion that too many spices take away from the apple flavor. We'll top them with some whiskey caramel sauce.
I'll post pics of the results.
With regard to the apple pulps it can be used in a dough especially if you are making a fruit dough especially if you have peeled and cored the apples to start with, and i think would be fine in a donut dough in fact id be inclined to try a dough using the whole pulped apples un strained.
regards Derek
I think I'll try that with another bake. This is a cool idea, and I bet it gives the dough more apple flavor. I'll freeze the pulp and save it for a dough I'm willing to be more experimental with.
I read somewhere in diabetic literature that we would all be heathier if we pressed the sugary juice out of the apples and pears and ate the nurishing pulp instead. Perhaps spreading the pulp thin and drying it. It could be cut into confetti and added back just before dough shaping for more flavour. Or the pulp could be mixed with spices and canned as a bread spread. Apple butter comes to mind. This can also be the swirl in cinnamon bread or rolls.
Check into using pulp instead of fat or butter in recipes.
In my neighborhood apples and pears are chopped and pressed, the pulp put out in the fields for the local deer as a food source. The juice is allowed to ferment into hard cider "most" or "farmer's champagne." It is cloudy at first as the yeast numbers increase and this "yeast water" can raise dough easily.
I've been baking this month using young cloudy grape wine at this same stage to raise my bread dough. It will also deliver a refreshing buzz upon drinking. From the taste in bread, there isn't much of a difference to regular yeast as flour quickly dilutes the fruity taste. I find leaving chunks of fruit inside the dough brings more flavour, creating pockets that burst on the tongue.
I like the idea of making apple butter and using that as a filling for a cinnamon roll. That sounds delicious.
I believe you've made bread with raw sauerkraut juice. I've got some sauerkraut juice in the fridge waiting for when I have some time to experiment. How do you adjust salt with these bakes? I'm thinking of backing it off to 1% for my first attempt. I'll be using rye flour with the juice. (Call it a rye sauerkraut levain?) How much does the salty brine slow down fermentation? I can see it taking quite a while, but rye is a hungry flour and it sometimes seems that nothing can stop rye from fermenting.
to control salt is to taste the dough.
Here's links to an old thread and cheater's sourdough:..
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40407/making-sourdough-starter-sauerkraut-juice#comment-461022
http://growthechange.blogspot.com/2009/12/cheaters-sourdough-bread.html
Sadly, the donuts did not turn out well. I wasn't able to get much of a rise and ended up throwing them in the compost heap.
There wasn't much sugar in the dough so I do think the apple cider slowed down the fermentation. If I were to attempt these again I would probably try using the cider to feed a stiff starter to get an idea of how the cider and wild yeast get along.
There is a lot of sugar in apple juice. Have you looked it up? You might have to double up the yeast just to get a rise. If the apple juice is fermenting, and effervescent, you stand a good chance of raising the dough.
Does cinnamon affect fermentation? There was about 1.5 tablespoons of cinnamon in roughly 1 kilogram of dough.
We did look up the sugar in apple juice and tried to adjust by lowering the amount of brown sugar used.
I used 12% prefermented flour. I'll probably try 18% next time. Or, perhaps I'll start working with yeast water and do an apple yeast water leavened donut next year.
To other fruits or indeed many enriched doughs. I would think pineapple juice has more sugar and we know that doesn't prevent fermentation. Do a small controlled test. A starter build with apple juice for the hydration. Alongside it a starter build with water but also with added cinnamon in the same percentage as your dough. And if you can be bothered a third starter build with both apple juice and cinnamon. Line them up side by side and see how they do.
Or better still make them the same hydration as your dough. Leave them for however long and monitor them over 12-24 hours. I'm thinking it was one of three things:
1: If it was the sugar it was the added sugar and not the apple juice.
2: It was the cinnamon.
3: Time!
EDIT: Sugar in apple juice is about 10%. The recipe asks for 15% sugar. Just work out how much sugar has been added with the apple juice in percentage against the total flour and reduce the added sugar accordingly. The original recipe doesn't ask for cinnamon (or at least you didn't specify it) and yet you added quite a lot. There are other things off balance in this recipe not only the apple juice. Won't it just be easier, and perhaps better, if you make some kind of apple cinnamon filling?
Based on the estimate of 10% sugar in apple juice, my back of the envelope calculation for the total sugar in the dough was 23%. Definitely too high for my starter. What's interesting is that the donut fails didn't taste particularly sweet.
All the apples have fallen from the tree. The experiments will have to wait until next year. Perhaps I'll try apple fritters.
1.5 tablespoons per kilo of dough...?! That sounds absurdly high to me...
Ever heard the phrase less is more?! haha! 1.5 tbsp of tree bark!
Best to infuse a smaller amount for a longer time. Trust me I know. I remember once, the cinnamon ice-cream I made and even with a small dosage and 24hrs of infusion that taste was so potent it changed the flavour to be, well something else! Paradoxically and favourably for your aim, to be apple like.
I'll keep that in mind. I did consider the ratio of cinnamon to apples, and it seemed reasonable.
I like the idea of using cinnamon butter.
... ‘a lot’ is relative...
Google says apple juice contains 10g of sugar per 100 grams. This is equivalent to 10 degrees Brix. Grapes destined for red wine may be more than two and half times sweeter at 23-28 °Brix!
Based on 10g per 100g of juice used to make say circa 60% hydration we end up a 6% sugar as a bakers percentage! This is less than the standard 10% sugar in a croissant dough and croissants are not really that sweet tasting.
Apple juice 100g with 10g of sugar is two teaspoons of sugar (5g teaspoons) 200g Apple juice would have 4 teaspoons of sugar. Apple juice tastes terribly sweet to me. I thin it with water before drinking. I think there is more flavour from apple grated or cubed than adding juice to the dough. I have a recipe where the apple is sliced thin or grated large size and baked to dry out a bit in the oven before adding to the recipe. So partially dried. That might be the way to go with the bagels. Concentrate that little bit of juice onto the apple pulp. Roll the apple bits in the cinnamon might keep it in place stuck on the apples away from the yeast.
Sensation of sweetness may also reflect the one-dimensionality of processed foods. Fresh fruit (or freshly juiced fruit) also provides the sour and acidity that creates a balanced experience. Like the bran in grain, or the complexity of coffee before it is over-roasted.
I'm thinking, despite your testament to matter, I believe your starter may not be as active as you imagine. A stiff starter can indeed indicate the truth of things... Heterolactic fermentation by bacteria produces CO2 also...
The contribution of malic acid from the apples may have shut down amylase and advanced proteolytic activity because you were using apple juice (cider) to replace all the liquid. Without measuring the pH of the dough it's hard to know where things stand in that case.
Do you have a recipe? I might make this with my starter...
Don't judge too harshly on some of the obvious blunders in this recipe! One misjudgement I made was in the hydration. I I should have known better. The bread flour and T85 flour I used in this recipe are quite thirsty, however, it was still too high.
I had to add more AP flour during mixing due to the hydration being too high. I also got a wild hair and added chopped apples from 2 medium apples. I should have known that this would increase the hydration so I had to add yet more flour. I did not note how much AP flour was added.
After the initial mix I proofed the dough in the refrigerator for 24 hours. I then shaped the donuts and left them out to proof all night.
I'd love to hear any ideas you have on how to make this work.
What do you mean by "a stiff starter can indeed indicate the truth of things?"
I feed my starter twice daily. During the day I leave it in the oven with the oven light on. I typically have about 225 grams of starter in a 3/4 liter Weck jar. The starter frequently rises to almost the top of the jar. I leave my starter in a cupboard overnight. The ambient temperature in this cupboard is usually around 65 degrees so I obviously don't wake up to an overflowing starter, but I usually get at least a doubling in volume overnight.
here's what I'm thinking I will do...
100g T85 or there abouts
100g white flour weak-med strength
240g white BF strength
96g LM (my starter) 50% hydration
240g apple cider (juice) freshly juiced
50g brown sugar
7.5 salt
75g butter
0.5TBSP cinnamon (infused with the butter the day before)
If required, adjust with 20-30 ml of water to get the right consistency for doughnuts, which I would say is firm-soft.
Looking forward to seeing the results!
So far, I have made cider with some homegrown apples..
Analysis:
pH = 3.74
°Brix = 12 = PA (potential alcohol) circa 6.5%
In order of mixing:
240g apple cider (juice) freshly juiced (12 °Brix)
50g light brown sugar
½ tsp ground cinnamon
57g sifted whole stoneground rye (from 100g)
50g white 00 flour weak-med strength (W210)
333g White BF (Marriage's Superfines)
108g LM (50% hydration)
7.5g ground sea salt
75g butter
2x egg yolks (approx. 36g)
30g water
Mixed dough pH: 4.98
Totals:
NB. The pH actually increased according to my measurements. I can suppose it took time for the acid buffering substances to diffuse into the liquid phase of the dough.
Did you bake or fry them? Do they have a strong apple flavor?
I prefer fried but chose to bake them for convenience. Apart from the nice aromas in the air while baking, the result was quite bland to be honest. I had to bake them while under-proved at just doubled as it was past midnight already, not because the rising was in any way troublesome but because of poor scheduling. Without time restrictions I would have let them triple. The under-proving was evidenced by significant spring and tearing at the base of several.
I also egg washed and sprinkled them with cinnamon sugar prior to baking.
Some sort of apple flavouring would be needed to make them apple tasting... Like Calvados.
Update: After resting for a day, the flavour has improved for the better, but still could do with an accompaniment. I might fill them with creme pat. They are very light textured but not quite what I'd expect from a doughnut. They need to be sweeter and I think milk in the dough is essential.
Interesting that you feel milk is vital. In my mind milk and apple clashes. I don't keep milk in my house though, and use DMS for enriched doughs.
Good to know that the use of the apple cider as the liquid didn't translate to a strong apple flavor. I appreciate you doing this experiment and sharing the results. Now I know that I will want to go in a different direction next year if we get another good crop of apples from our tree. Now I'm strongly leaning towards something like a cinnamon roll, where the filling has all the apple flavor, and the rolls are drizzled with a whisky caramel sauce.
into the sweetened dough? You're in for a nice surprise.
Know anyone with a good crab apple tree?
I seem to remember apple, sour cream, vanilla and lemon go good together too.
BTW, that homemade apple cider pairs wonderfully with rye whiskey.
I know I'm late to this conversation, but it's brilliant. Thanks all for being such a cool community. (I really want donuts now.)