'Dip and Dab' Polenta Sourdough
Inspired by Alan's Polenta Levain blog who in turn was inspired by a recipe from kingdombread-tampa on YouTube I decided to give it a whirl. My intentions weren't to stray from the original recipe but of course it morphed, or should I say evolved, into this somewhat different method.
The first very minor stray from the recipe. Nothing too major and could very well be considered not altering the recipe at all. Went to buy some polenta, with the very best intentions of cooking some myself, only to find right next to it a packet of already cooked polenta from Italy. It didn't take me long to come to a decision which one I should buy. Precooked it is. Reason being, I already have a lot of flour and didn't wish to be stocking up until I've used up what I have in the cupboard. Rarely make polenta and just wanted it for the recipe anyway.
I like to be well prepared not having to start measuring out the flour in the morning so often I'll do much of the preparation the day before. While weighing out the flour I thought why not do a saltolyse or a cold autolyse overnight? That way I'll just have to add the levain in the morning and we're off. So found myself adding the salt and water too.
As I was forming the dough found myself thinking what about adding in less starter and going for an overnight ferment so it's ready come morning. One major flaw in my plan is in agent refreshed my starter in over a month and only have scraps left. No problem! Dipped a teaspoon into the starter and dabbed it over the dough. Even better! Now I don't have to worry about not catching it on time plus I wouldn't have to work on the dough first thing in the morning. This gave me time to also get in some stretch and folds which in turn gave me an opportunity to find the bits of polenta that might have clumped and get the more distributed.
And so was born the 'Dip and Dab Polenta Sourdough'.
- Bread Flour 465g
- Whole Wheat Flour 35g
- Water 310g
- Salt 11g (because I've lowered the starter the salt percentage of the final dough is now a bit higher so if following my method the salt percentage may also be lowered with about 10g being more in line of a normal range)
- Starter : Tip of a teaspoon
- Cooked Polenta 92g
With a 20-21 hour bulk ferment and a 2.5 hour final proof.
The dough behaved well and had very good oven spring. Has a lovely crust to it with nice colour. Right now it's cooling. It's amazing what you can do with a very small percentage of unrefreshed starter.
Ingenuity at its finest! Looks like it turned out great and I love the color and gloss to the crust.
Tip of a teaspoon... Do you think you had even a full gram? That's a potent starter! :-) And... It brings up some interesting possibilities for the "busy baker".
When learning sourdough. Once one has learned these concepts then the rules may be broken. You've gotta know the rules in order to break them. They're there for a reason and they serve a purpose however the sourdough concept is quite straight forward. Yeast is an infection and the purpose of a starter is to infect the dough with yeast and bacteria. We do this with an established starter in order for a more stable ferment relying on our cultivated starter rather than completely to the elements for a more certain outcome. Everything else is merely icing on the cake. Now when using starter that isn't refreshed it's best to use a smaller percentage. This is to avoid off flavours and for a stronger dough. When using a higher percentage of starter you want to do a refreshment first for a more balanced flavour and there won't be a high percentage of compromised gluten. That's sourdough in a nutshell. You'll be surprised how strong your starter is. I think people fuss over their starter much more than is required. The feedings people do and the discard, the time spent and effort put in i'm often left wondering what on earth are they doing and why all the fuss?
Thank you Troy. Perhaps I'll give my starter a feed sometime soon. Been saying that for weeks now. The more I neglect it the less I have. The less I have the less goes into the next dough. Next loaf my starter flies over the dough.
Can't wait for the crumb shot. :)
Saint Dip. This will be eaten with a dab of olive oil. I'm out of cheese or toppings.
Thank you Mini.
“ With a 20-21 hour bulk ferment and a 2.5 hour final proof.”
At what temp, Abe?
... a reminder to myself and all others. Try to remember to indicate the temperature whenever the duration of any fermentation is indicated. Without temp the duration of fermentation lacks pertinent information.
If room temp is stipulated, it is best to give an estimate of what your RT is.
This point was posted as a tip. I plan to do my best to remember this.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67613/tip-all-fermentation-should-include-temperature
I'm not quite sure Dan. I go with the flow when it comes to temperature. Don't have a room nor a dough thermometer. If it's warm and/or the starter percentage is high I know it's quicker and vice versa.
Some of the ferment was done in the day and the bulk of it through the night then final proof through the day. If guess fluctuating from low 70's to mid 60's.
Something to think about for the future... being more conscious of the temps. Thanks Dan.
Nice!! It makes sense that precooked polenta would work well. And it sounds like your changes gave you the pleasure of starting your bake yesterday, as well as the gift of time for your day today.
And thank you for the input about starters. Your perspective confirms my suspicions about the whole topic, and backs up dabrownman's NMNF approach to starters. I haven't had much discard of late, I may just start baking out of my discard jar until it's gone and have one less thing in the fridge.
Going through a phase of baking broa di Milho, and variants of, I can tell you it works very well in a sourdough. You can try adding some in to your own recipes or try a recipe like this. My introduction to cornmeal in bread baking was Ian's (isand66) take on broa di Milho with a lovely mix of flours. Well worth trying.
Of course when being taught the rules and regulations are tighter, as is always the case, but one soon learns these are actually guidelines.
And of course timing a bake to fit your schedule plays a big part.
Thank you.
Handsome loaf Abe as always, I bet it is delicious and will have a lovely crumb. Looking forward to your tasting notes.
Benny
Was liking cornmeal in sourdough when baking broa di milho. If you haven't tried it yet then I really recommend it. A true broa di milho is a much higher cornmeal percentage and often has rye in it. However Ian has his own take on it with a nice mix of flours for a softer crumb but with all the pros of including cornmeal. I'm looking forward to tasting this one.
Thanks Benny.
As usual, daring and educational, Abe! I'm yet to try using polenta in bread, but it sounds like a great idea to me.
It's always good to push the limits. It's fun and we learn along the way. Cornmeal is delicious in sourdough. Works very well.
Looks nice Abe. To be clear - what grain is included in your polenta? Corn, or another grain?
Here's a link to the product I used. Actual recipe in the video I believe he just says to cook the polenta cornmeal in water then use 10% weight of the dough! So if all the other ingredients in the dough add up to 900g then use 90g of cooked polenta. And if you wish to stick to the actual recipe then the levain is 20% bakers percentages of the flour. The video is well explained and I will revisit it again without the changes I've made.
The video state 20% Liquid Levain of the total dough, not the flour. However that is Liquid Levain, and not prefermented flour which works out to ~9% PFF.
Oh so right about levain manipulation once you get the basics down. You've got the basics down way more than me, and I still get away with murder when playing around with levains, usage and builds.
I think I mentioned to you that when Dan first came on the scene he was asking me about my feeding schedule - which you probably know is anything but within the "normal" bounds, as I violate most rules when it comes to feeds and refreshes. And so when I laid out a few scenarios for him, he probably thought I was shooing him away.
This is a bread that I'll make time and again (as will you!), although with my 2nd lower hydration revised formula.
Dip & Dab, the Dainty yet Delightful Delaware Dough Doofuses.
He mentions it's a campagne bread with added polenta. I suppose as long as one remembers 10% cooked polenta of the total weight of the dough then one can turn any similar starting bread into a polenta bread using this method. Room for flexibility with the video being a good guide for the method. He does talk along these lines in the video and touches on how one can go about this and what other flours it might or might not suit.
The problem when starting down the sourdough path is how one teaches and conveys such flexibility? So the 'guidelines' are set in place as a stepping stone to get a good bread but one quickly learns how to manipulate it but that only comes through maintaining and using a starter. Theory only takes one so far and it's less flexible.
I second that and have you to thank bringing it to my attention.
That's quite a tongue twister lol.
What a flavour punch. Toasted corn cereal bread. Intense toasted corn flavour with a crispy crust and a lovely crumb which has retained its moisture but not gummy at all. I seem to be getting much better crusts with these very long ferments. Very happy with this bake. It packs loads of flavour be it the cornmeal, my method or both.
Superb crumb for this off the cuff porridge sandwich loaf Abe, it sounds delicious.
Benny
I'm very happy with this bake. Flavour is wonderful. Not sure what brought out such good flavour but whatever it is it worked. Now I haven't tried the recipe as it is yet but this version is a keeper.
Great bake with a fantastic looking crumb. I’m a big fan of adding polenta and love the extra moisture and flavor it adds.
My first venture into polenta sourdough was your broa di milho. Fully agree about the flavour and texture it imparts. Makes a very lovely bread.
?
The 10% stands out in my mind. Seems to be a favourite addition in many porridge type breads which in my mind includes tangzhong, mashed potatoes, cooked oatmeal, squash left overs and now altus. The many forms of Pre-gelatinized starch. Hmmm.
I had recently trimmed off 50g of lovely dark crust from a previous loaf and boiled it in water mashing as it cooked to break up any hard lumps of crust and set aside to cool. I often add about 60g altus to a new loaf, about the weight of one slice of bread. After cooling, it was a soft gelatin like mass...porridge...and the aroma was wonderful.
The cooked corn reminds me so much of this same type of inclusion working as a dough and flavour enhancer. Roasting the corn before adding water might also be interesting. There must be hundreds of starchy foods out there to play with. The mind boggles.
If you knew my long ago passion for making corn fritters, the dough recipe comes pretty darn close for a big batch of deep fried corn fritters (using instead whole cooked corn.) As a loafer, a loaf has less oil and less fuss.
Crumb is beautiful.
I've never tried an altus Mini and thought it was just a practice done in rye breads but now that you mention it it's an avenue I'd like to explore. So one slice of bread mashed in some water, gently cooked till it's a gelatinous mass then allowed to cool before adding to a dough.
The corn in this recipe is very apparent, imparts such nice flavour and crumb. Think I'm hooked. I'll certainly be exploring this path.
I've just cut up some of the polenta, sprayed it with some oil and seasoned it with salt, pepper and chilli flakes. Baked it in the oven and had it with some mackerel in tomato sauce.
Thank you Mini.
just crumble into the dough water to soften, or the levain or.... the point is to break it up a little bit so you don't recognize it again in the crumb. I just boiled it because the bread was already a week old. I usually use one or two day old bread. Don't want it diving into the dough bowl with mold or anything.
Interesting discussion about altus. I have a really old piece of rye bread that staled and I toasted it in the oven, but it appears I really thoroughly dried it, and so didn't want to break my teeth on it and just kept it aside. It's been a few months. Was thinking what to do with it, and had the thought it would work to try using as altus. Should I try boiling it in some water then? And then use as ~10% "porridge"? What kind of recipe would this work with?
Am I correct in thinking that altus developed in jewish delis in NY as a way to use up leftover unsold bread? I think I've seen this story somewhere, and in line with that I've never seen "old world" rye recipes using it.
and make sure it isn't rancid and it still has some flavour. Hopefully the altus has been kept clean.
If it passes those tests, weigh it. Add enough water to make 70% hydration. Perhaps a little less. The water and altus can be added in a number of different ways, together or separated. The bread can be grated or crushed and tossed into the flour or levain and the water can be added to the levain water or the dough water.
I find the easiest way is just to drop the whole slice into the dough or levain with the extra water and let it get soggy. Often the mixing of the dough breaks it apart. I like to run my hands into the liquid and break up lumps before adding flour. If the crust is very hard and thick, grab a stick mixer to chop it up after soaking.
The history of bread is older than NY.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/24/631583427/14-000-year-old-piece-of-bread-rewrites-the-history-of-baking-and-farming?t=1615226841191
I had assumed that immigrant Jewish bakers brought the "altus" practice with them from Europe along with their rye recipes - "Altbrot" is still a common ingredient in modern German home baking recipes, even though the economic and food scarcity incentives are much less strong today than they would have been in the past!
Polenta is a sweet idea. We make it with chicken stock and add butter and parmesan to it. I suppose the leftovers would still work in a loaf of bread. Another one added to my list to try along with the smear of starter method. A little dab will do ya as the hair gel add would say. A little goes a long way. I am conflicted and confused about the potency of sourdough and the need to refresh often. I am in the camp that you get out what you put in to your starter but not denying the fact that I have made good bread with a less than fresh starter.
Using precooked polenta in a way you've just described (although I'd think vegetable stock might work better when including the polenta in bread). Don't see why one can't flavour the polenta up, rather then just cooking it in water, in whatever way you think would suit your taste in the final loaf. Might be a good way to get some cheddar and jalapenos flavour into a loaf by way of polenta. Now you've got me thinking.
Here the way I see it. If your starter has no issue when being fed and prepped for baking and bubbles up then why can't it leaven a loaf? Only thing is if using a large amount you want it young for good flavour and stronger gluten. If your starter has not been recently refreshed then the flavour isn't balanced and the gluten broken down so you'll need to use less. As for the chemistry the critters in the starter are just waiting for food to do their job.
I have used leftover cooked polenta made with added cheese many times and it comes out great?
Abe you never cease to amaze me with what you come up with. I love that idea of using such a small amount of unfed starter. Beautiful bake!
Often experimenting, or simply converting recipes for ease or fitting ones schedule, gives very good results. It's also how we discover new techniques. Creating a starter, the first week or two from scratch, is supposed to make the next steps easier. That's why we maintain one, for ease not to make things more complicated.