The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

What am I doing wrong?

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

What am I doing wrong?

Hi everyone, 

Firstly I have to apologise for opening yet another topic, I just couldn't see one where everyone can go an moan about their failures :)

 It’s the first time I am trying to make sourdough and I already know I have made at least 2 mistakes:

  1. I have mixed the salt from the beginning
  2. I left the dough in the fridge overnight for probably too long – had to go to work unexpectedly and it must have been in there for around 19 hours.

I used half whole wheat and half strong white bread flour. Next time I will be using all white as the taste is a bit too strong for me. 

I have attached a picture and was wondering if you have any ideas where I’ve gone wrong (except the fails already mentioned) and how to improve. I am very inexperienced and hopefully I will manage to get it right as I really want to make a great sourdough bread someday. 

 

Thank you lots and it’s really nice to be here!

Hollie

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Welcome. Never be sorry for asking a question. All been there and done that. Your question won't be the last either. So ask away! 

Mixing the salt in the beginning is not the end of the world. True it won't be an autolyse but won't be the failure of a bread even if it does benefit from an autolyse. 

Without your recipe and method it'll be more difficult to answer. As an educated guess it looks like you've underestimated the levain maturity and/or bulk ferment. 

However a more detailed recipe would help immensely.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

It is hard to tell without the recipe and technique used but it actually looks more like a shaping issue than anything else. That is why you get the row of large bubbles-almost a flying roof or attic. Did it rest in a banneton refrigerated overnight and then go directly into the oven from there?

Tell us more.

the hadster's picture
the hadster

Hello:

I routinely leave dough in the fridge over night.  Sometimes, due to scheduling, I have to throw the dough in the fridge in the mid or early afternoon knowing I won't be able to do anything with it until the morning.

For your very first loaf of sour dough bread, this looks wonderful!  There are some on this site that can produce outstandingly beautiful loaves of bread.  I am not one of them.  My bread looks lovely, but nothing like the beauty that is on our front page (to the left).

Enjoy your bread! 

Hadster

the hadster's picture
the hadster

I meant to say, the beautify loaf on the RIGHT of our cover page.

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

Hiya!

Before saying anything else - thank you for taking the time to reply!

@Lechem, good to be here! :) 

@calzar123, I did leave it in a bowl, wrapped in a tea towel that was sprinkled with flour. As I am such a newbie I don't have proper baskets but I will get all the good equipment in time :) And yes, it went in the oven straight from the fridge. That's what the recipe said. 

@thehadster, thanks a lot! It feels good not to be the only one haha! 

 

The recipe I followed is aprox. 300g of sourdough starter (all bubbly and nice), 600 g water and 900g flour (I've used half organic whole-wheat flour and half strong white bread flour). So one part starter, 2 parts water and 3 parts flour. 

I have seen so many recipes that I am confused at this point - so I followed one that seemed pretty simple. If you have another good and tied suggestion please let me know.

From the start I think there was too much water because the dough was quite wet (hence the flat shape) but it was manageable, not overly sticky and after the fermentation overnight it did bounce back when pressed. 

 

  1. Mixed the starter, water, flour and salt and left for 1h.
  2. Kneaded the dough for about 10 minutes
  3. Left for 3 hours
  4. Kneaded again (the folding method)
  5. Left in the fridge for about 18 hours (sounds so long! Next time I will do it over the weekend)
  6. Baked on a baking stone at 230 degrees Celsius. 

One of my suspicions is that the crust solidified too soon and there wasn’t enough steam to allow the bread to rise properly. As I said, the bread started pretty flat because the dough was quite soft and it did rise slowly for the first 20 minutes I would say, then very suddenly (where you can see the gap) and then completely stopped - after 30 minutes in the oven I would say the crust was very brown. I had a tray with water on the bottom of the oven, but it really wasn’t enough.  I probably do need a Dutch oven?

What else can I try? There is way too much information and variations out there… if you guys can recommend a good sourdough baking book please tell me.  

Thank you so much!!!

 

 

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

As a very first loaf, I would say that it looks really good!  Well done on choosing the most straight-forward recipe to start with:  the 1-2-3 style is really a great place to start, and gives you a nice point to start making changes from.

From your picture, it looks to me like you are using a gas oven.  If that is correct, then using just the pan of water for steaming is not going to be enough, since gas ovens are designed to vent continuously, so your steam is leaving as fast as it is being made.  Trying to bake uncovered with steam will require knowing how to block off the vents, playing with turning the oven off and on again, and a lot of other details (check out all that kendalm has done in his posts about baking baguettes in his gas oven).

A dutch oven is a great option, but you could also use any heavy baking surface (pizza stone, pizza steel, or even a regular baking sheet) with a heavy cover (stainless steel bowl, roasting pan, big pot --- held down with another heavy flat pan if needed).  Personally, I use an old enamel steel roaster (https://www.amazon.ca/Granite-Ware-18-Inch-Covered-Roaster/dp/B000050AVC/ref=lp_2224092011_1_7/147-9254019-6339448?s=kitchen-substore&ie=UTF8&qid=1502...), but there are a lot of other choices too (la cloche or other clay bakers, cast iron combo cookers, using the upturned steam trays from commercial restaurant steam tables).

Now, mixing in the salt right at the beginning is perfectly fine - and is often recommended if you are using high percentage of pre-fermented flour or are baking in high temps and want to slow fermentation down a bit.  You'll be able to change that or not in future bakes, depending on whether you want fermentation to get started more quickly or not.

If your starter is strong enough (just how old is it, what is it made up of, and how quickly does it double?), then your 4 hours of room temperature fermentation (from the time the starter hits the flour, until you shaped it) should be fairly close for fermentation at about 24 deg C room temperature and using part whole wheat flour.  If your refrigerator is cold enough (holds at no more than 3 deg C), then the 18 hours would be generally be fine for a refrigerated proof, but it might be too much if the fridge is warmer or too full and the dough didn't cool quickly enough. 

I suspect that the main issues might be:

- your starter is a bit young, so the levain might not have been strong enough for the timing

- the boule wasn't strongly shaped before being put in to the bowl and refrigerated to proof (it's tricky getting a good shape, especially with a wetter dough)

- the surface of the dough dried out too much in the fridge, since it was only covered with a towel (next time, try a piece of plastic wrap or even a plate - something that won't allow air to pass).  This would make it impossible for the surface of the dough to stretch and split in the oven.

If the dough looks and feels really "flat" when you pull it out of the fridge, then I'd suggest that you take it out from the bowl and give it another pre-shape, then a rest (covered with plastic or a damp towel) for 20 or 30 minutes, and then a final shape and put it back in to your proofing bowl and let it proof again at room temperature.  You'll be able to feel any big bubbles in the dough when you re-shape it, and that gives you a chance to pop them and for all of the gases to redistribute more evenly.

You also mentioned that it felt like a really wet dough even though it is at 71% total hydration.  I'm guessing that you are not using North American flours (which can take more water), so your best bet is to start the autolyse or dough mix at closer to 62% or 63% hydration (if you're using a 100% hydration starter / levain, you'd only be adding another 510-520g of water to the rest of the flour).  As you are mixing and kneading in the starter and the salt, you can go by how your dough feels to see how much more water that you might want to add.  I usually keep a measured amount of water nearby, and add it in little bits as I'm kneading until the dough feels "right" --- then I can note exactly how much I added.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you are running a very high percentage of whole meal flour (if your starter / levain is using whole meal, then your dough will be at 57% whole meal), which means that hydration and handling and rise and timing will be quite different than a mostly plain flour dough. 

All in all, I'd say that you are doing great!  I'm looking forward to seeing your next bake!

TinkMan's picture
TinkMan

Hi - and congrats on giving sourdough a go. Not always easy I know. My thoughts are that your dough is over-proofed, and your little beasties were worn out when the dough hit the oven. I can see that the loaf didn't spring too much from looking at the score marks as a result.

As to the inconsistency of the crumb - I think you can overcome this with technique.I suggest letting the dough warm a bit out of the fridge (doesn't need to be room temp - a bit cooler can also be easier to work with) then do a final shaping of the loaf. Be gentle and don't knead as this will deflate too much - I normally just fold each of the four corners in then use a cupping technique to rotate the dough while tucking underneath/stretching the skin to be nice and firm. This retains some of the volume of your dough but also "redistributes" some food for the yeast to eat and thereby raise the dough more uniformly. It should also result in them having some zest to spring your loaf as it hits the oven.

Good luck on the next one. (I would personally drop the whole wheat % too, but it's a matter of personal preference).

Cheers,

Lincoln 

 

 

 

BobBoule's picture
BobBoule

for a first attempt. Its a learning experience because you need to discover what is unique to your environment that makes your loaves do what they are doing. It seems that you could use a lot of steam in your oven because the crust is thick and there is not a lot of rise. I suggest trying SylviaH's method of creating steam with towels.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20162/oven-steaming-my-new-favorite-way

More steam means more rise because the crust will not set until its dry. Do be careful, the steam can burn you when you open the door, if you have glass in your oven door then make sure yo don't drop any water on it (or else it will crack), be extra careful loading and unloading the pan of water, etc.

You can bake a dough straight from the fridge but doing that has nor worked for me, I find that I always have to let the dough get up to room temperature before I put it into the oven and then I get excellent rise from it.

Your hydration level looks to be ok, I'm going to guess that there wasn't enough steam and that the dough was too cold to give you good rise. If you get good rise but still have that gap going across the center of the loaf then I would suspect that the kneading/folding needed a bit more work.

You are off to a good start, just keep baking and have fun!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

lie in the final proofing?   I suspect it needed a shorter final proof with more folding closer to the baking time.  

I see the bottom of the loaf is pale.  Might want to get more heat directly under the baking loaf for more upward rise.  

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

Wow, I really appreciate all the advice guys! I read everything on my phone during the week, usually in my lunch break at work, but it's a pain to try and do a long reply on a smartphone so I usually have to wait and get on my laptop when I have a bit of time... 

There is a ton of useful advice here, and will definitely not give up. 

My starter is not ideal; I can't get the lovely sticky, bubbly consistency that I see in videos. I get small bubbles and it's a bit more liquid. Being in UK, it’s always cold so I’m not sure if that’s the issue… I suspect the flour is not great either.

Is a liquid starter a sign that the yeast has eaten everything and it should have been fed sooner?

@IceDecember – that is exactly what I am using – a gas fan oven and I think that the amount of water I’ve used to create steam wasn’t even close to being enough, so I definitely baked that bread without steam if I look back.

I have a ceramic casserole-type dish so I will give it a shot tomorrow, hopefully it will create enough steam inside... will shall see J It’s not very large, can cut 1/3 of the final dough, after I take it out of the fridge and make a pizza as well? Or should I keep it intact?

I will also let it get to room temperature before baking it this time. Wish me luck! J

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

OK, I gave it another go and honestly the dough was a mess... I used only strong white bread flour this time, but I think the quality of the flour wasn’t great, because the dough was very wet and not manageable, I couldn’t really knead it and fold it properly, it stuck to the tea towel but I persevered and baked the loaf.

Next time I will reduce the water and use a better quality flour, hopefully will get better results.

This is how the bread looks:

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipME1_zI8vSX4ZuMcxtVLS43wjYXbRwIeRvT1GEk

(not sure how to upload a photo here!) 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Have you tried going really simple to start off with? 

Can I recommend http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/sourdough-pain-naturel/

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

Is tere a way to insert a picture here? I get errors nomatter what I try... 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Then click on the box next to the "image URL" box

Click upload

Choose your file

Find the photo and click upload

It'll appear in the big empty box under "file name"

Highlight the photo and click "insert file"

It'll now appear in the image URL box

Click "insert" and it'll appear in the message box

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Looks good. A big step in the right direction! The rest is just practice. Getting to know when your starter is at the optimum strength. Getting to know the feel of when the bulk ferment and final proof are both ready. But that comes with practice. You've already improved loads with the second bake. Nice! 

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

Uh, I used to be down with the forums once upon a time... 

Thank you for the article, it's brilliant. Just what I needed! :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It makes a lovely loaf and the instructions are very clear. Looking forward to seeing the results. 

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

Thanks Lechem... I knew the texture won't be great because the dough was so wet I couldn't really work with it properly, but I already have a plan on how to improve it next time :)

Your adivice reallt helped a lot!

ejm's picture
ejm

I read about sifting whole wheat flour in Michael Pollan's book "Cooked".

The bran was still undermining the gluten, either by puncturing the gas bubbles or by weighing them down, giving me a too-tight crumb. I hit on a slightly wacky idea: I would remove the bran from the inside of the bread and put it on the outside, where it could do no damage to the gluten. So, before mixing my flour and water, I sifted the chunkiest bran out of the flour, maybe 10 percent of the total volume. In effect, I was making white (or whitish) flour circa 1850, pre-roller mill […] It still had the germ, but only those particles of bran small enough to slip through an ordinary sieve. However, I reserved the sifted bran in a bowl, and after shaping the loaves, I rolled them in the stuff, making sure that every last shard of bran was taken up by the wet skin of dough.
 
It worked: The trick allowed me to bake an airy and delicious loaf with a toasty, particulate crust-all the while preserving my claim to a “100 percent whole-grain” bread.

– Michael Pollen, Part III: Air, the education of an amateur baker, Cooked: A Natural History of Transformation

I have used this method to make 100% whole wheat bread, using Pollan’s sifting method. It did work beautifully (although maybe I didn’t get quite as much loft as I’d hoped for). But it was still WAY more loft than the doorstops of yesteryear.

(For more detail, please read more here: blog from OUR kitchen | Sifting: the key to lofty whole wheat bread (Bookmarked).)

Hollie Smokes's picture
Hollie Smokes

the hadster's picture
the hadster

That is some lovely looking bread, and our crumb is opening up nicely.

Do you like the texture and taste?

Its an obsession, but a tasty one!