June 14, 2017 - 3:02pm
Bread Not Rising - Fermentation Too Short?
I'm using this recipe: http://www.homecookingadventure.com/recipes/easy-sourdough-bread-vermont-bread
...and it makes a nice, tasty loaf, but it's hardly rising at all.
My question is this: do you think the bulk fermentation time (2.5 hrs) and proofing time (2.5 hr) are too short? Lots of other recipes seem to have substantially longer fermentation times.
If I lengthen the fermentation time, do I have to change anything else about the recipe?
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As always one should watch the dough and not the clock however with the levain amount and even when allowing for some variables the times given should be producing a risen loaf.
Perhaps its all in your starter maintenance and levain build. So how do you maintain/prep your starter and how does the levain build perform?
That is great advice! But I'm not sure it applies here. I mean, by the time I've reached the 2.5 mark on proofing, the dough has barely risen *at all.* How much more time could I give it? Unless the recipe is totally off.
I do consider that it might be my starter or leaven, but both are, or at least seem, pretty solid.
- My starter is almost three weeks old, very active, smells very fruity and pleasant. I feed it every day with about 20% of the previous day's starter, 100g APF, 100g water. It very quickly becomes bubbly and gassy, and while it doesn't ever really double in volume, it definitely expands. I usually inoculate the leaven with it about six hours after it was fed, when it's still quite active.
- I build my leaven the night before in a glass bowl. I don't use plastic wrap---I just use the plastic lid that fits over the bowl. (I've sealed the bowl completely, half-sealed it, and just placed the lid gently on top; none seems to make much difference over the others). The following morning the leaven is invariably bubbly and the texture is appropriate. It doesn't seem to expand that much (it might be hard to tell in the wide glass bowl), but it definitely expands. Sometimes it passes the "float test" in a measuring cup of warm water; others it doesn't. But the yeast always seems to take very well.
The only other thing I could think that might be wrong is kneading---perhaps I'm not a very good kneader and am not working up the gluten for its necessary gas-trapping qualities. I dunno.
is healthy. The levain build won't rise much as it is 125% hydration and won't trap much gas but it will be frothy and full of bubbles on the surface.
Perhaps a little tweak to build up the yeast population and see what happens.
In the morning (day before trying this recipe again) take 5g of your starter and feed it 40g water + 50g flour. A feed of 1:8:10. Then 10-12 hours later go onto the levain build to mature overnight.
This greater feed should help increase the yeast population. Then another feed with the levain build should further increase its strength.
While one should watch the dough and not the clock the recipe timings should not be totally off.
I will try this, thank you!
You don't mention your dough temperature or the ambient temperature. Both are very important in evaluating fermentation times.
You don't mention your dough temperature or the ambient temperature. Both are very important in evaluating fermentation times.
...but the ambient temperature in my fermentation / proofing room (my pantry) is probably in the lower 80s
If I am reading the formula correctly I come up with 269 grams of levain (40%) when calculated against 680 grams of flour (100%). By my standards that would be a lot of leavening, and given dough temperatures in the high 70's - low 80's, I'd expect fermentation to march along at a very quick pace. To me this equates to a dough that has consumed most of its available nutrition long before it enters the proof stage.
If I were experimenting with this formula I'd first find a way to control the dough temperature. When the author says "room temperature" that can mean a lot of things. My "room" can be 66 F in the winter and 90 F in the summer but I work really hard to hold my dough temperature around 74 - 76 F. This may mean warming at certain times of the year and chilling at other times. A cool dough will ferment and proof more slowly and a warm dough can ferment and proof very fast.
If you cannot control the temperature than you may need to adjust the amount of levain and/or change the times. As others have said, "Watch the dough and not the clock" but that can be difficult if you do not know what to look for.
Make a single change, try another bake run and measure the results. Do it again and again until you get what you desire. Even if the experimental bread doesn't meet your ideal it is still very edible I'm sure.
Good luck and I'd like to know how things are progressing.
Jim
Jumping in with two (or three) feet here. I've made Mr. Hamelman's Vermont SD only twice, both recently, but as it turns out today will be bake #3. So allow me to make some observations. Keep in mind that my kitchen environment is 78-80dF. Now it isn't often where I will flat out state that I know what I'm talking about, but in this case, trust that I do...
Starter/levain: this is a 125% hydration bread flour levain. You will see only very modest growth in this levain with a very frothy set of bubbles on top. That's it - don't expect any exponential growth. This step should take 6-12 hours for each stage of the build depending on your environment, and should be built in two stages. This is a very easy levain to build. If you are not ready to use it when it matures, then place it in the refrigerator until you are ready. Either allow it to warm up to room temp again or use warmer water in your mix if you do retard the levain.
This is a relatively low hydration dough, clocking in at ~65%. Some type of hand or mechanical kneading is absolutely necessary. If you are mixing by hand, try learning the French Fold from videos online.
Your bulk ferment/proof times are completely off the charts for your ambient temperature. I allow 2 hours maximum on this dough with letter folds (stretch and folds) at the 50 and 100 minute mark in my 78-80dF environment. If you think that your dough hasn't risen, it might be because it has collapsed from over proofing, can't say with any certainty.
Place the covered (always covered) bowl with the bulk dough in the refrigerator for an overnight nap.
Remove, divide, pre-shape, shape and then place it back into the refrigerator again. Leave it there for a few hours more.
To get past your initial dilemma, don't bother to do a final proof on the counter. Your total time of retard for this dough would be at least anywhere between 12-18 hours, for instance.
Once your oven has come up to temp. (480dF) for 45 minutes, remove your dough from retard and then load it into the oven on your baking deck after either scoring or placing the seam side up - if that's the way you want to bake. Drop the oven temp to 460dF for the actual baking cycle.
Steam the oven with a one or two of Sylvia's Steaming Towels and/or a pan loaded with something like lava rocks which are each loaded with near boiling water. If you have a gas oven then oven venting will present its own problem and these probably will best be baked in a Dutch Oven type of vessel.
Here are examples #1 and #2 - with my formula sheet on my experience. I changed something each time (including today).
You may want to substitute AP flour for the bread flour in the final mix, I found that it gives a more extensible and less "rubbery" dough.
Any terms mentioned here that you aren't familiar with, do a search on the search box in the upper right of these screens. Pay attention to what Jim discusses above about the dough and environment temperature.
Report back because we are collectively interested in getting folks to problem resolution around these parts!
alan
...if it never rises in the first place?
based on complete uncertainty, as I stated. I don't know if you place it into the pantry and never check on it or not, but based on the ambient temperature which you stated and the length of time for bulk rise, that was a guess. There are probably a dozen or more unique reasons why you aren't seeing a rise.
Pinch off a golf ball-sized lump of dough and put it in a small, straight-sided glass. Press it down and put a piece of tape on the side of the glass, marking where the top of the dough is. Make another mark at 1, 2 and 2.5 hours (where the top of the dough reaches). This might make it easier to see exactly how much the dough is rising. It's sometimes very difficult to make this assessment with a big mass of dough in a sloping bowl.
I just built my first Sourdough Levain according to Hamelman's instructions using Whole Wheat Rye. I then used his Vermont Sourdough recipe and retarded in the refrigerator for about 16 hours. I noticed that it didn't rise much at all. Before baking I proofed for about 2 -2 1/2 hours and once again it didn't rise a lot. The dough did spring back when tested. I decided to bake even though I saw little rise.
To my surprise I got phenomenal oven spring.
Is this to be expected? Or should the retarded ferment and the final proof be expected to rise more?
Haven't cut them yet so I have not seen the crumb. But I expect it to be very nice. Looking forward to tasting it...
By-the-way, BrickLayer. I hope you are a mason by trade. If your handle describes your bread, try higher hydration. Make the dough wet. If it ain't a little sloppy, it's not good. :<)
I don't see a rise in the levain, as it's very hydrated, but I do see froth and bubbles.
Definitely see a change in the dough and some rising in the dough stage. The bulk ferment is just as much about bringing the fermentation to a point where the dough is elastic and has extensibility and not always about it doubling. You will notice a more aerated dough though.
Depending on how cold your fridge is and how long its been retarded will affect how much it rises in the final proof. Normally it is ready to be baked straight from the fridge if the levain is a large amount, the bulk ferment done well and it's been 8-12 hours. If need be one should finish the final proof at room temperature.
Hopefully yours has turned out very well and looking forward to results. Sometimes a phenomenal oven spring may indicate an underproofed dough. It would look rather like the dough has exploded in the oven. However you did do 16 hours in the fridge which is rather on the long side so perhaps not and its just really good oven spring. Fingers crossed.
EDIT: I've just re-read your post and see that you retarded during the bulk ferment stage. I normally do so at the final proof stage. You weren't clear if you gave it any bench time during the bulk ferment though.
have a hard time remembering all of the processes. Please clarify. Not sure about bench time?
" you retarded during the bulk ferment stage. I normally do so at the final proof stage. You weren't clear if you gave it any bench time during the bulk ferment though."
I made the final build for the levain as Hamelman describes and let it sit out overnight (12 hours). Mixed the dough and bulk fermented for 2 1/2 then final fermentation for 16 hours in refrigerator. Note; the dough looked strong and hadn't deflated.
I chickened out on the slashing. I wasn't thinking they'd spring that much. Next time...
You gave it a further 2.5 hours at room temperature after retarding in the fridge for 16 hours during the final proofing stage.
My process would have been 2.5 hours for the bulk ferment and 2.5 hours (ish) for the final proofing.
Should I wish to include fridge time then I'd do the 2.5 hours for the bulk ferment at room temperature then after shaping I'd refrigerate for 8-12 hours. More often then not it'd be ready to bake straight from the fridge. If need be I'd give it some room temp time should the dough need it.
If I plan to do a longer fridge time then better to retard the dough after the 2.5 hours bulk ferment but before shaping. Then carry on with shaping and final proofing when ready taking into account to watch the dough and not the clock.
Your bread looks good from where I'm sitting. I believe iphone does this to the photos. I think you have to anticipate this and load them upside down and then it'll flip it the right way up.
I'll try that. "If I plan to do a longer fridge time then better to retard the dough after the 2.5 hours bulk ferment but before shaping. Then carry on with shaping and final proofing when ready"
If I understand correct. Initial bulk ferment (with a fold or tow) for 2 1/2 @ room temp. Then transfer dough bucket to bottom shelf in frig for 12 or more hours. Remove and let dough lose chill. THEN shape and do final proof.
Do I have it right?
I shaped the dough before long refrigerated ferment. I'll try your way next.
Thanks
That would be my method if retarding the dough for longer than 12 hours as you're in danger of over proofing.
If it's within the 8-12 hours window then fine to shape and refrigerate. As it normally comes out of the fridge ready for baking. 16 hours seems a bit long.
You probably won't have to do the full bulk ferment at room temp for 2.5 hours before refrigerating for 16 hours but knowing when the dough is done enough at room temperature will come with practice. Till then 2.5 hours then into the fridge will be fine.
But please note that after 16 hours in the fridge at the bulk ferment stage the final proofing timing, after shaping, will most probably differ to recommended times so watch the dough and not the clock (which is always a good idea).
Take advantage of the chill and shape when still a bit cold. Of course you may need to warm it up somewhat first to enable shaping but a cold dough is easier to shape
My version of the recipe is a combination of Hamelman and David Snyder's San Joaquin SD. Here are my timings for my kitchen (temperature in the winter 68F; summer 76F) Because I have standardized things, I don't look to see how much rise takes place any more. You do get good fermentation in all the steps including the retardation.
and that long retard would sure would really bring out the flavour, I bet.
Nice! and thank you for a breakdown of your timings.