September 29, 2015 - 2:29am
"00" Flour
Just a general enquiry, I have seen some recipes the call for type "00" flour. Could anyone tell me what that is and how it may be different from strong flour? I am thinking of trying Ciabatta and the recipe asks to use type "00" Flour.
Thanking you all in advance
Peter
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This could help you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour#Type_numbers
According to that: 00 Flour is ~0.8% ash, ~14% protein.
Ok thanks for that. I must not be reading it right, i thought it had 9% protein. If that's the case, its softer that plain flour. I have not tried ciabatta yet, i will just have to get some "00" Flour and give it a try.
Peter
It is also very finely milled since all the harder bigger bits are sifted out. Makes great Italian style pizza and not so prone to spring back when stretches (elastic) and more extensible due to the low protein content,.
I just checked the Central Milling spec on their 00 flour, which is what I use for pizza. It's 11.2%, right around where AP flour is typically. King Arthur's 00 flour is 8.5%.
I was just commenting on what the chart said and what Italians typically use for their pizza. I know some people use high gluten flour (14%) for their pizzas here but I like the Italian pizza - very thin and crisp not fold up NY Style floppy. Luckily there is a flour for every taste and style.
I've often wondered just what the various '0' flours were all about. Good thread. Thanks guys.
I too prefer the style of pie that stands out crisp and straight (like a proud soldier) and unfolded, supports the weight of its own toppings.
Being born, raised and still a NY-er, I am all too familiar with that folded, phlacid, oil drenched and overcheesed concoction that your typical, run of the mill Pizza joint puts out.
I use an AP and Pastry flour mix rather than straight Bread, AP or Pastry flour for my pizza dough. My choice was based on test comparisons that found the tender chew of an AP/Pastry mix to be more enjoyable (for me) compared to the tougher chew of Bread or straight AP flour pies or the almost cake-like chew of pure Pastry flour.
My AP flour comes in at 11% protien and my Pastry flour comes in at 7%. That puts me right around the 9% of Italian 00. Who knew?
I never noticed tho (and I might be wrong - it's been years), that it was harder to attain a crispy thin crust with Bread flour. I always found (and still do) that the dryness of the toppings and a high oven heat were most responsible for crispy crust.
Just some thoughts - Dobie
Tipo 00 flour just means that it is the finest grade of flour (as in the smallest mill setting, not quality). This is the Italian distinction at least. It feels kind of like baby powder. The protein content will vary by manufacturer and more importantly by intended purpose. I would argue that when most people refer to 00 flour, the ultimate comparison would be to look at Caputo flour (at least in the pizza world which means it should apply to the bread world too). There are several 00 flours they produce that have different protein content. I don't think ANY of them are low protein. The lowest I know of is about 11% (+/- 0.5%). Most are in the 12.5% -13% range or higher.
http://caputoflour.com/product/
Thanks for the link Maverick.
Boy, just when you think you are starting to understand something...
Since there is no standardization of terms between companies nor nations, I think the '0' ratings are nearly meaningless. I would substitute AP or Bread flour for 00 and work with the flour(s) on hand according to what I was trying to bake.
@dobie
It's a shame no one could provide a satisfactory answer and for you to conclude that this grading is "meaningless".
'00' along with '0', '1','2' and integrale all specifically refer to the ash content and have nothing to do with fineness, grind or protein content.
'00' means the flour has a maximum ash of 0.55%
Most Italian's will determine the strength or gluten properties by knowing the W value.
Knowing this data, (W,P and L) and the ash (tipo) is far more telling than simply gauging a flour by it's protein content which is arguably the most meaningless data of all...
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/farina
Actually, ash content is directly related to the fineness of the flour. But, yes technically it is referring to percentage of ash content. But simply saying ash content has less meaning to most people.
The greater portion of minerals found in a kernel of wheat is contained in the germ, and husk, or bran, and the least amount in the endosperm. As a consequence, if a flour contains a greater number of bran particles, it has a more elevated ash content. The determination of the ash content serves to estimate the degree of the endosperm separation from the bran during milling.
Of course the mineral content of wheat varieties cultivated under different growth conditions can vary markedly. Plus not all wheat varieties have the same mineral content gradient from the peripheral tissues of the wheat kernel to the endosperm. So that is why the use of ash percentage is used for grading.
So perhaps I should have quoted Molino Bertolo (http://www.molinobertolo.it/eng_faq.php) to give a more thorough answer:
What’s the difference between "0" grade and "00" grade flour?Under Italian Law, flours are classified according to their ash content (a sample of flour is incinerated and the resulting residue measured and shown as a percentage of the original sample). This is directly connected to the level of fibre present, which is most present in bran.
The finest and whitest flours, which are sifted more and which have lower ash content, are classified "00". They come from the more central part of the kernel, provide better yeast growth and gluten development, but have less protein than types 1 or 2.
The difference between "0" and "00" flours is minimal; the permitted ash content level for "0" flour must be between 0.55% and 0.65%, while for "00" flour it must be between 0.45% and 0.55%.
Generally speaking, a flour which contains some fibre is preferable so "0" flour is preferred. But for some foodstuffs, for example fresh pasta which mustn’t have any specks, it is essential that the flour used is as pure as possible, and so the lower ash content of "00" flour is preferable.
Thank you Maverick
A very informative post.
dobie
Thank you mwilson for the further information. As I don't understand much Italian, I could get little from the link you provided. Ash I understand but what is 'W,P and L'? Flour is so much more complicated than I ever would have supposed.
When I said that the gradings were 'nearly meaningless', I was referring to the first link that Thanshin shared. The same names or grades are used for different products, depending on what country they come from. Unless I'm misunderstanding something (entirely possible), this essentially renders them all meaningless to me unless I choose to memorize 6 or more scales from 6 or more regions often using the same gradings to describe different products and translate between them. Sorry, that's not going to happen, thus, meaningless.
They are not meaningless within their own context (country or region) only to me as a consumer of products from potentially any region. The milling industries of the world would be doing themselves (and me) a big favor if they were to standardize their grading systems.
Am I wrong?
dobie
It sounds to me like you're unnecessarily perceiving things to be more complicated than they are. The grading system discussed is Italian, end of story. I'm sure that an American produced flour branded as '00' will be adopting this system and mean the same thing. The "first link" shows a table offering rough equivalents between countries.
I'm sorry the world doesn't conform to your desires of standardisation.
As for W, P and L, they are explained in the link I provided you.. TIP: Google translate works wonders!
Perhaps guilty as charged, perhaps not. Wouldn't be the first time I've found myself in such a pickle. I'm just trying to learn.
Regarding the first link, I didn't get (and still don't) that the grading system 'is Italian, end of story'. My read is that they mention the differing standards of the UK, US, Germany, France, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Argentina. Nowhere do I read that the grading system is the 'Italian' and that these are the equivelants to the Italian grading system within those countries. Maybe I just missed it and if so, I am sorry - could you please point it out to me?
Please don't feel ' ...sorry the world doesn't conform to your (my) desires of standardisation.'.
That would just be the normal course of events. I was only suggesting that standardizations between industries, let alone nations, would be useful (and not just merely regarding flour).
Google translate works like all bloody hell and until they improve it, it is hard for me to consider bothering with it.
As to what 'W, P and L' mean (and as usual, I might be wrong here) but I thought the purpose of this forum was to serve as a repository of information, rather than merely a list of links to outside sources (particularly those that require poorly functioning app's like google translate to decipher).
If you can't be bothered to share information, then so be it.
But then, why are you on this forum? Just to learn, not to share? Essentially, all that I have learned from you in this discourse is that something called 'W, P and L' might exist and that it might be of some interest to me.
I certainly mean nor meant any offence; I'm just asking, what's up with that?
dobie
Initially, upon when I offered my input I thought I was responding to the OP. Shortly after did I realise you were not thee. You seem to have hijacked this thread.
Italian - end of story. Why? Because that is exactly what the OP is describing, flour with a specification that is clearly Italian .They asked what that means. I provided an accurate answer about this system.
Different nations have different grading systems. This is to be expected. I have no interest in hearing you complain about such. It's non constructive.
You accuse me of not being bothered? Surely you are the one that cannot be bothered, you even admit as much. I am sharing information. I linked you to a relevant and informative resource but then you spit in my eye by expecting me to transcribe it especially for you? I'm certainly not here to spoon feed you information that you will not otherwise read yourself.
You say you mean no offence. In my experience that phrase is typically said when one knows they may have and you have indeed. Who are you to question my presence here in this forum?! I am helping. It's not my fault you don't like my help. It's yours. You are self hindering. As far as I can see you're contribution to this forum so far is to hijack threads and fill them with mindless and off-topic drivel.
In keeping with forum etiquette, if you have questions to ask. Please respect the OP and start you're own thread...
With all due seriousness mwilson, I will ponder your post before I respond. Thank you very much.
dobie
mwilson
Normally I would not respond to a post in this manner (line by line) but in this case I think it is warranted. I will enclose yours with quotation marks and mine, without.
'Initially, upon when I offered my input I thought I was responding to the OP. Shortly after did I realise you were not thee.'
Well, not my fault.
'You seem to have hijacked this thread.'
If you look back at my posts (which I'm sure you are loath to do) you will find that each and every one is in some manner, relevant to the Original Poster's concern. I haven't hijacked squat.
'Italian - end of story. Why? Because that is exactly what the OP is describing, flour with a specification that is clearly Italian .They asked what that means. I provided an accurate answer about this system.'
First, let's revisit the core of the original post. To quote "...recipes the (that) call for type "00" flour. Could anyone tell me what that is and how it may be different from strong flour? I am thinking of trying Ciabatta and the recipe asks to use type "00" Flour."
So the OP's concern is '00' flour and what it is. Referencing the first and very helpful link offered by Thanshin, there are multiple '00' flour gradings of flour in multiple nations as well as others that obviously do not describe similar flours. So while it may be obvious to you that the OP's reference is to the Italian grading system, it might not necessarily seem so to the rest of the world (or at least not Argentina).
Other than that Ciabatta would be considered Italian in origin, where do you get that the OP is discussing the Italian grading system of flour?
And, even if that were so, why would it be irrelevant (as per the link Thanshin posted) to discuss all the various confusing and disjointed grading systems around the world?
I stand by my post of "I was only suggesting that standardizations between industries, let alone nations, would be useful (and not just merely regarding flour)."
What is wrong, off topic or 'hijacked' about that statement?
'Different nations have different grading systems.'
Finally, we agree about something.
'This is to be expected.'
Not by me.
'I have no interest in hearing you complain about such. It's non constructive.'
I don't think you have an interest in hearing anything I might ask or add, however my contributions have not been about 'complaining' nor are they 'non constructive.' Quite to the contrary, I ask questions and share experiences.Constuctive both, I think.
After all, this is a discourse between forum members and not just some diatribe of absolutisms for your own device. Others have a voice as well, and I am one.
'You accuse me of not being bothered?'
Yes I do. How long would it have taken you to write the one or two sentences it would take to describe the obviously very precious and well guarded secret of what in the hell 'W, P and L' mean?
That information would then reside on this forum for the entire world to see. But no, you can't be bothered. Yes, I think that is so.
'Surely you are the one that cannot be bothered, you even admit as much. I am sharing information. I linked you to a relevant and informative resource but then you spit in my eye by expecting me to transcribe it especially for you? I'm certainly not here to spoon feed you information that you will not otherwise read yourself.'
The only thing I can say regarding such a ridiculous statement is that Google Translate is not a viable tool. Apparently we disagree.
Also, you are not sharing information, merely a link to information. Big difference.
Sorry if it pisses you off so much but I did not intentionally ‘spit in your eye’ nor do I need to be spoon-fed anything from you. There are other resources (that don’t require Google Translate) to gather information. I thought this forum was one of them.
You seem to be easily offended. It must be a hard life.
'You say you mean no offence. In my experience that phrase is typically said when one knows they may have and you have indeed.'
I am aware of that dynamic, yet when I said I meant no offence, I meant it. But then apparently, I'm not the mind reader you are. Now you can take offence. Did you see that coming?
'Who are you to question my presence here in this forum?!'
With all due respect sir, I did not question your presence on this forum, just your motivation.
'I am helping. It's not my fault you don't like my help. It's yours. You are self hindering. As far as I can see you're contribution to this forum so far is to hijack threads and fill them with mindless and off-topic drivel.'
Honestly, I don't think (at least in this case) that you are helping. Just bitching and moaning in my opinion. My contributions are either as questions or offerings of the little bit of experience I may have, but they are usually relevant to furthering the conversation.
'In keeping with forum etiquette, if you have questions to ask. Please respect the OP and start you're own thread...'
Maybe this is where our disagreement truly lies. I thought relevant questions within a thread were encouraged.
Regardless, I will try to stay out of your way and I would appreciate your reciprocation.
dobie
Thanks all for the comments about "00"flour. As stated before I am new to this Bread making and I thought that bread was just a mixture of 4 ingredients and was a simple process - How wrong I was!! its a fairly complicated Art and the more I seem to learn, the more it seems there is to learn. However, its really interesting and I am experimenting with various processes. The different types of Flour makes it even more interesting and I have the feeling that there is a whole new world of bread-making out there to be tried ,tested and experimented with. Thank again for all the information.
Peter