Borodinsky Forever
Over the last few days I've been working on another Borodinsky. I made some new rye malt, then refreshed rye sour, and scald flavored with the malt, molasses, and not quite as potent ground coriander as my last try. I followed Andy's Feb 6 Borodinsky post, with the exception of some different timing and a little less coriander. I cut into the loaf this morning, and felt, that maybe, just maybe I had made something close to a real Borodinsky loaf.
Gave some to my son for breakfast - he ate it without any topping and without any complaint. Then cut up some slices and took them to a morning meeting. Since the people at the meeting were civilians (i.e., don't lie awake at night thinking about how to make such and such authentic Russian bread using the Auerman process) I thought they might not like it, and warned them it was very rye-y and coriandery and so forth. But everyone ate it and most people seemed to genuinely enjoy it. One woman mentioned that she thought it would be heavy and dense since it was mostly rye. But it wasn't - instead very light in a rye sort of way.
My only complaint is that the bread didn't quite hit the top of the pan, even though I thought I had the scaling (.69 of Andy's bake) perfect. The bread obviously had some ovenspring, but rather than smoothly expanding to fill the inside of the pan, it seemed to rise as if it was uncovered and then cracked along the top.
I tried to get a very uniform paste in the pan by putting some in with a spoon and then smoothing and flattening it with a wet rubber spatula.
My rye malt was much more successful this time. I read through all the links people sent me - thank you. I took Juergen's advice to raise the temperature while toasting the sprouting berries. The color was much darker this time but I would call it ginger rather than red. But I did get a much more powdery consistency when I ground the berries after toasting. The potency this time around was much stronger, and I was a little afraid that I had burned it, since it had a very powerful aroma. In retrospect I think it was fine.
Compare this with last time:
I also found what I thought was a very interesting discussion about making rye malt here. See in particular Ron's comments in this thread.
Baking Notes:
I always wait to use liquid rye sour until it is frothy on top. In this case, I fed the sour in the afternoon. Then again at night around six hours later. Then left it overnight. Ten hours later, it was frothy, so I combined it with the scald (made at the same time as the second sour feed) to make the sponge. Then let ferment for 4 hours, per Andy's instructions. I added final ingredients (rye flour, wheat flour, and salt) and fermented for an hour. Then spread into the pan (9 inch Pullman.) Then proofed for only 1.5 hours rather than 3. I used a wet finger to poke and test for elasticity, and just felt it was done earlier than expected. Andy specifies a long bake at very low temperature with a very high temp start. That didn't work with my schedule. Instead I did the following. Preheated oven to its highest temperature - 550F - for 40 minutes. 20 minutes into the preheat, I added a big pyrex lasagna pan full of water and with three towels in it. At 40 minutes I added the loaf, and let the temperature come back up to 550F. Then reduced heat to 350F. At 1 hour 15 minutes into the bake, I removed the loaf from the pan, and removed the steam pan, and baked for 30 more minutes. This time I managed to wait for around 20 hours before cutting.
As for coriander, the first time I made this, I put in a very small amount of coriander that had been ground months before. I think I underdid it. Then second time, I put in freshly ground coriander at a little less than what Andy had specified. The smell of the sponge with the coriander was overpowering to the point of being unpleasant and things didn't get any better with the bread, which failed for other reasons. This time I scaled Andy's formula to .69 which would have called for 7g of coriander. Instead I put in 5g of my supply of coriander which had been ground awhile ago. This worked. The flavor was fantastic and not overpowering. Note that in Andy's Feb 6 post, he didn't put in the coriander until final, whereas in earlier posts, he put in with the scald. Either way seems to be ok.
I'm happy with this latest effort. Thanks so much to Andy for his detailed and repeated posts on the subject.
Comments
I don't know how close it is to a real Borodinsky but your bread is really great as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks so much for your comments Nico. -Varda
and delicious, Varda! I can almost take a bite of the lovely crumb shot.
Sylvia
I was so happy I managed to get a good shot of it. -Varda
Varda,
This is a beautiful loaf! I like the top. It adds color/texture and the crumb looks great.
Your malt looks the way mine does. I too was afraid I had burned it because it has much more of an aroma than my barley or wheat malts but it works just fine in the loaves I use it in. No complaints yet of a burnt flavor.
I have been so focused on the PdMie that I miss baking the ryes - breads that are solid and dense. Breads that seem befitting to the winter weather and now Spring is rapidly approaching.......
Thanks for the post and wonderful write up of your process.
Take Care,
Janet
Janet, Thanks so much for your kind words. I'm very happy to have got this far with it. Hopefully farther with time. Interesting that your color malt is the same as mine. I baked my sprouted berries for an hour at 170F, another half hour at 300F, and then around 20 more minutes at 350F, trying just trying to get it red. Maybe longer at a somewhat lower temp? I don't know. I note that the center of the berry seems to get very dark in the oven, but the outside stays tan. I wonder if the people who make actual red malt, do some more processing to remove the outer shell. To my mind it mixes up to ginger as a combination of the dark inside and the light outside. Glad to hear from you as always. -Varda
Varda,
I made my rye malt awhile ago and can't recall the baking times anymore. I seem to recall 350° as the top temp too. I made a a fair amount so I have not had to make any more but, when I do, I will take note more carefully.
Like you, I was afraid to go any longer as the aroma really was heading for burnt...in fact, I am having vague memories that I may have baked it simply to dry it out at a low temp. and then I might have ground it after which I might have baked it at 350° in ground form....but memory does fail me on this matter...and several others....I think....'large grin'.
Janet
Interesting. -Varda
Hi Varda,
I had the same thing happen to me with the cracking on the top of the loaf, for the sample I took to the UK TFL meeting. I think in my case it was down to the shape of the bread pan in question - not a Pullman, but a wide and fairly squat pan, not good for these loaves. I reckon you under-proved this loaf, although not by much, for sure. Either that, or you have thirsty Dark Rye flour..which I definitely have. Currently hydration for these breads is at 96%! If you go that high you clearly have to bake out the loaves very carefully.
Crumb is first class; and the top of the loaf lovely and dark. No doubt it will get darker if it is stored for any length of time. Big "if", I guess. It looks so good that I suspect most, if not all, has already been eaten by now.
The malt should still be quite a bit darker than your photo, but your description of flavour suggests there is plenty og body in the loaf from the malt anyway.
It's great to see you work away with this formula and master it like this
All good wishes
Andy
Hi Andy, I think I was a bit skittish about letting it overproof, so as soon as it didn't spring back immediately when gently pressed, into the oven it went. I'll have to be a little less activist. For this loaf, I used a very coarse whole rye which seems better to me for this type of bread. For my last one, I used a more finely ground whole rye, and didn't like the texture. So maybe you are right - more water called for. I'll try it next time, just to see what is what. I brought several slices to a meeting, then cut a few slices for my neighbor who likes whole grains, so not much left to get dark unfortunately. I wish I could find a step by step description of how to make the rye malt come out red, but until then I'll experiment. I so appreciate your remarks, and generous sharing of your formulas and techniques. -Varda
Varda, I am Russian and I can only admire your work. I know how hard it to bake a right Russian rye bread if you don't have Russian flour. Actually, I always have more success with Western rye breads than with Russian ones, because I live in Belgium and can buy only the French rye flour.
Your Borodinsky looks great and, I am sure, tastes even better. The only thing that can be improved, in my opinion, is the crost. I don't remember eating in Moscow Borodinsky with the cracked top, but it is possible that my memory fails in this case.
Anyway, I admire your bread and I can only wish to be able to repeat your wonderful Borodinsky in my kitchen. Your post's inspired me to make my own rye malt.
Eliabel, Thanks so much for your comments. It means a lot to me as coming from someone who actually knows what this is supposed to be. I used a very coarse whole rye flour. Don't know what is used in Russia. It's always hard to match results when the flour is so different. I was definitely not trying for the cracked top, but view that as something I have to work on. Perhaps as Andy said it comes from underproofing or too low hydration. I hope to see a report on your efforts, and if you figure out how to make the rye malt red, please let me know. -Varda
success !! Very nice bread varda and I bet it tastes great with a little less corriander ( not my favorite bread spice in large quatities) Just think what your wood oven would do for it? Very nice bake indeed and it doesn't bother me in teh least that the pan wasn't as full as you would have liked - just call it rustic :-)
used as a chemical weapon. I love coriander, and use it for cooking a fair bit, but when this batch (which my husband picked up at an Indian grocery) is fresh ground, it's just too strong for bread. Thanks so much for your comments, and happy baking. -Varda
A beautiful loaf Varda!
I wonder if it makes a difference if the paste is flat or rounded in the pan before it goes into its final proof... Anyone?
that flattening it would help it to rise uniformly. Didn't work. The more I think about it though, I will go with too low hydration, at 90% no less. It seems to have been too dry to keep expanding as it should have. I'll have to put that theory to the test. So nice to hear from you and thanks for your comments. -Varda
Hi Varda,
Your Borodinsky is a real beauty! The rounded top of the loaf looks really good, and the crumb, just perfect.
Congratulations on your success with the bread and with your homemade rye malt.
:^) breadsong
Breadsong, Thanks so much for your comments. Both the bread and the malt remain a work in progress. -Varda
Great bordinsky, varda! Glad you took the plunge and accepted the hardcore rye challenge. Being in the middle east, with limited access to rye flour, i look to high percentage rye breads as exotic gourmet foods, and bake them accordingly. I don't have memories of wholegrain breads in my childhood, let alone rye breads. Thanks to thefreshloaf, and bloggers like you now appreciate the rich flavor of rye breads!
Hi Khalid, Believe it or not, this type of rye is pretty exotic for me too. Fortunately, it is not too difficult for me to source a variety of rye flours, although they are much less plentiful around here than are wheat flours. But these Russian style ryes are nothing like the ryes I grew up with, and I know them only from TFL, just like you. I have always admired your tenacity (and skill) at tackling wholegrain breads despite the difficulties of sourcing flour, etc. Thanks so much for your kind remarks. -Varda
Congratualations on your early success with the Borodinsky project Varda! The terrific open crumb on this high rye loaf is really outstanding. I'm saving this to reread before I make my next attempt with Borodinsky. Thanks for sharing and great work!
Franko
I threw my last one out after a few bites because it was inedible. So I went forward with almost an air of futility and thus was happy when I got bread that even my husband (who "hates" rye) was willing to eat. Of course when he asked me what it was, I just said Borodinsky and didn't mention the rye. Good luck! -Varda
Beautiful Varda! That crumb looks so lovely and moist and the colour gorgeous. Like Khalid I don't have any childhood memories of eating Boromadinskys but your loaf looks so enticing I think I am going to have to try onr soon (just so I can start creating those memories).
I always think freshly roasted, ground spices are better. They tend to lose their potency after a week in storage and can take on a musty, dank smell. Why don't you stick with the freshly ground but reduce the percentage to a fraction. You could always slowly increase until you find the amount that you like.
Nice baking,
Syd
Hi Syd, Thanks so much for your comments, and I do hope you'll try it. As far as the coriander goes, in theory I agree. But at least for awhile, I think I'll use the previously ground (aversions being what they are.) -Varda
Looks incredible Varda! I wish I could try a slice. :)
when I looked at Andy's posts. Thank you so much! -Varda
I thoroughly enjoy your posts and this bread looks terrific. You have done such a great job on this interesting bread project. You mentioned the top splitting a bit, which I see in the photo above. I don't know if it would work at such high hydration, but docking the loaf might even out and relieve some of the pressure on the top of the loaf. Just a thought.
Howard
Hi Howard. Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure about docking, although it seems that similar high rye breads would be docked. I think first I'll go up on hydration a bit. As made this bread is at 90%, and Andy mentioned in his comment that he is going as high as 96% depending on the flour. It's a bit nerve racking to go higher. If that doesn't work, then it makes sense to try docking. -Varda
Very nice loaf, Varda!
I've been reading for a while about Borodinsky, but I was afraid to try it, and I don't have a right pan for it, yet. I'm still gathering informations on how to make malt and which rye flour is best for this tyep of bread, but Borodinsky is my top challenge this season.
Your post inspired me so much, I realy really want to make/taste this bread.
Thank you, Varda! I'll go check andy's post.
codruta
I was just on your site the other day looking at some amazing pointy batards, and wondering how you got them that way. Thanks so much for your comments. I have missed your posts here recently. Hope you try the borodinsky. It is worth it just for all that flavor. I used a very coarse whole rye flour which of my efforts worked the best. Andy uses dark rye. -Varda
Hi Varda, Codruta,
Just to let you know that currently I'm moving to produce these breads using only Rye flour, in order to make them "wheat-free" as I have identified a customer base for these products. i continue to use Dark Rye in the sour and scald. However the final dough now uses all Light Rye [997]. Quite a change, but producing great results, nonetheless. White Rye is virtually impossible to find in the UK
Varda, Howard's advice to try docking the loaf is good; use a knitting needle, and dip it in water before spiking the top of the loaf very carefully.
All good wishes
Andy
Thank you, Andy! I have a friend coming from Austria next week and I already asked him to bring me all the rye flours he can find. I can't wait to make this bread. I have to make rye malt first, but finally, after a looong and busy period, I have some spare time for reading and experienting. I'll get back to you if I have questions about Borodinsky formula. Best wishes, codruta
Varda, I miss my own posts here, too. Hope I'll get back to blogging soon. I'll try Borodinsky for sure, it's bee too long since it's on my mind.
Thanx again. Codruta
ps. the shaping of a pointy batard is an ongoing project. I made progress, but I still have a lot to learn. For me, it wasn't easy to get where I am now, I don't know why, but I ruined a lot of doughs on the way...
I went up and re-read your comment:
"The bread obviously had some ovenspring, but rather than smoothly expanding to fill the inside of the pan, it seemed to rise as if it was uncovered and then cracked along the top."
What about an extra cap of foil on top? Once I asked my son to make a foil tent for a rye loaf (he wanted the rectangle pan shape and I don't have a lid.) I usually make it a single layer shaped over an empty loaf pan. Well, he made a double layer and the loaf came out beautifully! So why not try an extra piece of foil on top to keep the surface cooler as the dough bakes?
The crumb is excellent so I don't think that docking is an issue. I dock before baking as a precaution against too much fermentation in the proof after shaping or if I possibly tucked in a large bubble. I tend to leave a good sized gap running around the top of the shaped paste between the pan and the dough as it rises up during the proof. I don't want any drag between the dough and the buttered pan sides as the gap fills in. I use a wet spatula or scraper for this as my fingers aren't pointy enough. Smoothing over the domed surface with a wet hand tends to help it stretch smoothly. The surface is wet when the tent is put into place. If you put the lid on the Pullman while the dough is proofing, slide back to rub on a little more water before baking. See if that helps. Maybe the dough surface dried out too much during the proof. Just a few thoughts...
Mini
All good ones. The lid on the Pullman isn't that tight, but I did have a lot of steam in the oven. An extra seal might be good, in which case I don't think the steam would be useful would it? It is so hard to say that a wet paste is too dry but I keep coming back to that. I have used two different rye flours for this bread - the one for this was very coarsely ground. The one before was not. That one was scaled higher, but I think rose much more percentagewise (which ruined the bread.) I have to think about this. Appreciate your help. -Varda
That's an absolutely gorgeous and deep-looking bread, Varda. How I would love a taste of it! Your baking is always so interesting. Thank you for the detailed post.
All the best, Janie
Janie, Interesting description. Don't know exactly what it means, but it seems right. This bread made for a very nice change of pace. Thanks so much for your comments. -Varda
Varda, I'm sure you posted somewhere the links for making rye malt. Please, can you guide me to the right page ( I saw the link you put herem in this post, is that it?)? And second, it must be rye malt, or can it be barley? is in tradition of Borodinsky to use rye malt, or the taste is different/better/ than barley malt? I'm so excited about this formula, I'm starting today the malt process :)
thank you, Codruta
Codruta, Instructions are scattered all over the place. I'll collect here. Yes Rye Malt is traditional for Borodinsky. If you can't get a hold of that you could use barley malt, and get a great flavored bread. I have not sprouted barley malt, so this is what I did with rye.
1. Soak berries in water for around 5 hours
2. Drain and rinse
3. Spread out on flat pan and cover with wet paper towels so that the seeds are damp but not soaking. Make sure they don't dry out. I used a spray bottle to spritz the towels every few hours. Overnight, I added a wet dish towel on top of the paper towels.
4. When many of the seeds have sprouted and the sprouts are long (say 3/4 cm) they are ready to roast. I believe it took around a day and a half after soaking.
5. Place pan in low oven (mine was 170F) for one hour. Raise heat to 300F for around an hour. Raise even farther (350F) for around 1/2 hour.
6. Grind.
Steps 1-4 and 6 are pretty straightforward. I have not been able to make red powder (see pictures above.) I believe the key is the roasting routine. I'm guessing it should be longer and and a little lower temp, but I'm really not sure. Let me know how yours turns out.
THANK YOU, Varda for such a detailed answer. I had rye berries in a jar, and I already put them in water. I used 100g of berries, but I have no idea if it will be enough ?! Well, I like this experiment, and I'm curious about the final result. Can I ask you one more thing? how did you grind them?
Tank you again, I'll keep you posted on my progress :)
codruta
Codruta, For my scaling, I only needed 35g of malt so I started with 60g of berries which gave me almost 60g of malt. I didn't make a bigger quantity because I don't feel like I have the process down yet. I saved the leftover, and noticed my husband sprinkling some on his yogurt the other day. He said it was good. So the small quantity fit fine in my coffee grinder which has become more of an everything but coffee grinder lately. The first time I tried it, the berries were not cooked enough, so the mix came out very coarse and sort of "bony". The second time, with the longer, higher temp roast, it came to powder in the grinder. Good luck! -Varda
on this project, Varda, so interesting and fun! The crumb picture is wonderful.
for your comments, FlourChild. It's fun to mix it up and try something new. -Varda
Varda, the rye germinated, but something weird happened... Do you have any idea why the main shoots (acrospire), instead of bursting inside of the grain have burst out? to all of the grains! What should I do, should I continue the process of drying and roasting, or they will burn during roasting?...
:( codruta
Codruta, I don't know. I saw thin sprouts which I think are roots. See picture here. The second time I roasted I let the sprouts get longer. The seeds opened up in the oven. But I guess if I were you I would just go ahead, and see what happens. Maybe keep temperature low, and keep a watch to make sure doesn't burn. -Varda
Hi Codruta,
I have also sprouted and roasted grains and I think what is happening to yours is normal if this is what your grains are looking like:
If I was growing these grains, this is a good photo of when I would begin the drying out process as the growth is really rapid. I tend to go for underdeveloped because overdeveloped can happen within just a few hours once these grains start growing and the conditions are right.
Hope this helps.
Take Care,
Janet
Hi Janet, that is exactly how my berries looked like this morning, before I dried them. In the meantime, I already roasted them and grind them in a fine powder, light reddish (it becomes brown in contact with water) the taste is sweet, maybe a bit bitter. I think I might have roasted them too long. I can't find molasses here (of any kind, not even treacle), so I'll go with the recipe, but I'll omit the molasses. I'm inclined to use a bit of altus, I'll see... Tomorrow I'll study the formula and get all the ingredients ready. This is fun! I love making bread, but rye always scares me, I dont know why, I got some pretty good results lately, but still find it intimidating...
codruta
Hi Codruta,
Good to know your intuition was right about when to dry them out :-) I know it helps me to see pictures. Have you seen this video on sprouting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HauYECAEQ8I
It was a big help to me when I first made malted grains and I really liked the music too.
I felt the same way about baking with rye but after following a few recipes posted here by Hanseata, Andy and Phil, I no longer have that fear especially with loaves like this one because there is no shaping and most of it is just fermenting and stirring in the next 'feed'. Getting the length and temp. of the bake time is more of a challenge.
When I made this loaf I used a bit of altus too. I followed Phil's (PiPs) formula. People I gave it to loved it.
Take Care,
Janet
Hi Codruta, Glad you resolved your rye malt issues. Any chance you could photograph it? I would like to see the color you were able to get. I think that since molasses gives so much flavor to the bread, that you should replace it with something. Maybe a strong honey? -Varda
I did photograph both the roasted seeds and the malt, I'll upload the pictures lately on flickr and I'll give you the link.
honey seems like a solution, maybe a dark brown kind of honey will be a good sustitute. thanx
codruta
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