White Batard

Breadsong, Now that you mention it, I am making another round with a stiffer preferment right now.   The taste of this is wonderful.   So I would like to make it work.   For my first try I did 100% hydration preferment which was a total fiasco.   Then 80% which I posted on above.   This morning I have a 72% preferment.    If it works I'll do an update.   Otherwise, perhaps 60%?    But it's not just the hydration of the preferment that seems to matter-  it is also the total amount of yeast water, which I have been decreasing stepwise as well.    I tried to jump directly to Akiko's baguette approach which uses a very small amount of yeast water, and the complete dough gets mixed and fermented overnight, but unfortunately that one went out to the woods for the coyotes - perhaps my yeast water was too weak?    Thanks for your comments.   I guess this is silly since I can make better looking bread with my regular starter.   But I'm interested so I'll keep working on this.   -Varda

Hi Nico,  I'm not a microbiologist either - just a  humble amateur baker.   But I would say that it's not the flour - at least not directly.   The first time I used a regular AP flour in the preferment with a 100% hydration and yeast water as 58% of total water.    This did not go well.   The second time I used KAAP in the preferment with 80% hydration and yeast water as 26% of total water.   This went better but still had issues with excessive proteolytic activity.    Both times I used KAAP in the final dough.   KAAP is the usual flour I use with my regular starter and I have not had these type of problems.   So I strongly suspect that the fruit yeasts are generating a fair amount of protease.   I thought I reduced percent of yeast water as a total of water for my third try, but it seems that I didn't.   So the main difference between try 2 and try 3 is the hydration of the preferment.   We'll see if that makes much of a difference.    Thanks so much for your comments and interest!

Summary of three attempts:

Attempt 1:

Preferment Hydration:  100%

Total Hydration:  70%

Protein of preferment flour:  9%

Protein of final dough flour:  11.5%  (KAAP)

Prefermented flour:  41%

Yeast water as percent of total water:  58%

Score:   Total disaster

Attempt 2:

Preferment Hydration:  80%

Total Hydration:  71%

Protein of preferment flour:  11.5%  (KAAP)

Protein of final dough flour:  11.5%  (KAAP)

Prefermented flour:  23%

Yeast water as percent of total water:  26%

Score:   Delicious but no cigar

Attempt 3:

Preferment Hydration:  72%

Total Hydration:  70%

Protein of preferment flour:  11.5%  (KAAP)

Protein of final dough flour:  11.5%  (KAAP)

Prefermented flour:  26%

Yeast water as percent of total water:  26%

Score:   TBD

Hi Juergen,

I read through Andy's comments again.   If I understand correctly he is slowing down enzyme action for high ash content but lower gluten flours to give time for the flour to be properly hydrated.   Since I am using a high gluten, lower ash content flour there isn't a direct parallel, but still it's quite interesting.   Using Andy's pointers, if I wanted to slow down the high protease activity that comes with my yeast water (others' as well?) I could add salt earlier, and/or refrigerate the preferment and/or refrigerate the dough after the first mix.  

I tried again today with the numbers as above and had a somewhat different (although not successful) experience.   I was able to pull the dough together on the first stretch and fold this time, and then continued as I had previously.   Unfortunately I overcompensated for my previous problems and overdeveloped the dough.   Again the cuts didn't open properly and I'm pretty sure it wasn't because of protease breakdown of the proteins but because the dough couldn't expand properly in the oven due to overdevelopment.   So I think I will go even lower hydration on the preferment and make sure I don't overdevelop.   But later.   For now, perhaps I'll make a few breads that I know how to make just for grins. 

Thanks for your help!

Varda

Hi.   I am not an expert on this and others are, but I will just tell you what I did.   I was following instructions from Akiko:  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23809/how-i-make-and-maintain-raisin-yeast-water  and from there followed her link to https://www.evernote.com/shard/s46/sh/c22155fc-3804-4c64-af35-161503be7f78/ad16dc75c5233ba34ede4f13669e19bb.   I used bananas to get my yeast water started but apparently that's not recommended even though it seemed to work fine.   I have since converted my yeast water to raisins.    I recommend looking at Akiko's write-ups but I'll try to summarize what I did here.  

Take a jar with a tight lid (I used a mason jar) and cut up a banana.   Cover with water.   I used tap water - Akiko says to use distilled water.   Screw on top and shake.   Let sit on counter until fruit starts to break down.   Add water so that jar is half full.   Shake again.   Leave on counter.   Every few hours shake vigorously.   Alternate between cap tightly shut to develop alcohol and cap loosely shut to allow oxygen in to grow yeast.   Do this for a few days (it took me five days) until fruit floats on top, jar hisses when slightly open and you can smell alcohol.   Then refrigerate for a day before using.  

To use the yeast water, in this recipe I mixed flour and yeast water as noted the night before baking and then used it in the final dough the next day as the starter.  

After using for a bake, I filter out the fruit and pour a couple of centimeters of yeast water into my clean jar, add a handful of raisins to double the volume, add water so jar is half full, screw jar tightly and shake vigorously.  Then leave on the counter with jar top slightly loose.   Refrigerate when fruit rises to top and leave until next bake.    Generally when I take it out of the refrigerator to bake, the scent of the water is extremely strong with a big component of alcohol.  

If this isn't clear, please ask and I'll try to clarify.    

when it comes to yeast water, which is probably why I was unclear.    To make what I was calling the poolish I mixed 150g of bread flour (I use King Arthur All Purpose) with 120g of yeast water (see response to comment above to see how to make) the night before and left it on the counter.    In the morning I mixed all of the poolish (270g) with 500g of flour, 340g of water and 12g of salt.  

I may be confusing you by calling the yeast water and flour mix a poolish.   Generally we think of a poolish as a mix of flour, water and commercial yeast which is mixed up the night before and then added to flour, water, more yeast and salt the next morning.    In trying to figure out a good way to bake with yeast water, I was theorizing that one could make a poolish with yeast water and flour rather than commercial yeast, flour and water.   I don't know if this is the way to go or not, since I'm still in an experimental phase and not entirely satisfied with my results to date.  

Please let me know if I've answered your question or not.